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When Survival of the Jewish People Is at Stake, There’s No Place for Morals
Opinion
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More in Forward ForumThere is little disagreement that every Jewish leader, organization, community and individual has a duty to help ensure the continuity of the Jewish people. But in a world where the long-term existence of the Jewish state is far from certain, the imperative to exist inevitably gives rise to difficult questions, foremost among them this: When the survival of the Jewish people conflicts with the morals of the Jewish people, is existence worthwhile, or even possible?
Physical existence, I would argue, must come first. No matter how moral a society aspires to be, physical existence must take precedent.
Clear external and internal dangers threaten the very existence of Israel as a Jewish state. It is very likely that the collapse of Israel or the loss of its Jewish nature would undermine the existence of the Jewish people as a whole. And even given the existence of a Jewish state, less clear but no less fateful dangers threaten the long-term sustainable existence of the Diaspora.
When the requirements of existence conflict with other values, therefore, realpolitik should be given priority. From the threat of a disastrous conflict with Islamist actors such as Iran, to the necessity of maintaining distinctions between “us” and “others” in order to limit assimilation, this imperative ought to guide policymakers.
Regrettably, human history refutes the idealistic claim that in order to exist for long, a state, society or people has to be moral. Given the foreseeable realities of the 21st century and beyond, harsh choices are unavoidable, with requirements of existence often contradicting other important values.
Some might argue that putting existence first may be counter-productive in terms of existence itself, because what may be regarded as immoral action can undermine external and internal support essential for existence. However, the calculus of realpolitik gives primacy to existence, leaving limited room for ethical considerations. The unfortunate reality is that the Jewish people may be faced with tragic choices in which important values have to be sacrificed for even more important ones.
Responsible decisions in such difficult situations require clear recognition of the involved moral issues, careful pondering of all relevant values and acceptance of responsibility for one’s autonomous judgment. They also demand an effort to reduce to a minimum the violation of moral values.
Nonetheless, when faced with such choices, the Jewish people ought not be captivated by political correctness and other thinking-repressing fashions. When it comes to China, for example, efforts to strengthen the rising superpower’s ties to the Jewish people should trump moral-minded campaigns to alter Beijing’s domestic policies and handling of Tibet. The same goes for Turkey: Given its crucial peacemaking role in the Middle East, discussion of whether the Ottomans committed genocide against the Armenians ought to be left to historians, preferably non-Jewish ones.
That is not necessarily to condone China’s policies, or to deny Armenian history. Rather, it is to recognize that however just such moral stances may or may not be, the Jewish people must give primacy to existence.
What is required is a priori pondering of values, so as to have guidelines ready for judgment in specific contexts and under crisis conditions. The overall issue is whether the imperative for the Jewish people to exist is a categorical one overriding nearly all other values, or one among many imperatives of similar standing. Given both the history and current situation of the Jewish people, I would argue that the imperative to assure existence is of overriding moral weight.
Let us leave aside reliance on transcendental arguments, biblical commands and sayings of the sages, all of which are open to various interpretations. The justification for giving priority to the needs of existence is four-fold.
First, the Jewish people has an inherent right to exist, just as any other people or civilization.
Second, a people that has been regularly persecuted for 2,000 years is entitled morally, in terms of distributive justice, to be very tough in taking care of its existence, including the moral right and even duty to kill and be killed if this is essential for assuring existence — even at the cost of other values and to other people. This argument is all the more compelling in light of the unprecedented killing only a few decades ago of a third of the Jewish people — mass murder that was supported directly and indirectly, or at least not prevented when possible, by large parts of the civilized world.
Third, given the history of Judaism and the Jewish people, there is a good chance that we will continue to make much-needed ethical contributions to humanity. However, in order to do so we require a stable existence.
Fourth, the State of Israel is the only democratic country whose very existence is endangered by deeply hostile actors, again, without the world taking decisive countermeasures. This justifies — indeed, requires — measures that would be not only unnecessary but also potentially immoral in other circumstances.
The Jewish people should give much more weight to the imperative to assure existence than to other values. There are, of course, limits; nothing can justify initiating genocide. But with the few exceptions where being killed and destroyed is better than transgressing against absolute and total norms, assuring the existence of the Jewish people, including a Jewish State of Israel, should be valued as a top priority.
Thus, if the security of Israel is significantly strengthened by good relations with Turkey and China, but in some views Turkey is guilty of genocide in the past against the Armenians and China of now repressing Tibetans and domestic opposition, Jewish leaders and organizations should support Turkey and China, or at least remain neutral when it comes to their affairs. At a minimum, Jewish leaders should not join the chorus of liberal and humanitarian actors condemning Turkey and China.
Similarly, Jewish leaders should support harsh measures against terrorists who potentially endanger Jews, even at the cost of human rights and humanitarian law. And if the threat is sufficiently grave, the use of weapons of mass destruction by Israel would be justified if likely to be necessary for assuring the state’s survival, the bitter price of large number of killed innocent civilians notwithstanding.
To be sure, there is much room for debate on what is really required for existence. Giving priority to the imperative to exist does not imply supporting each and every policy of Israel. Indeed, the opposite is true: Diaspora leaders, organizations and individuals have a duty to criticize Israeli policies that in their view endanger the Jewish state and the Jewish people’s existence, along with an obligation to propose alternative existence-assuring policies.
But at the end of the day there is no way around the tough and painful practical implications of prioritizing existence as an overriding moral norm over being moral in other respects. When important for existence, violating the rights of others should be accepted, with regret but with determination. Support or condemnation of various countries and their policies should be decided upon primarily in light of probable consequences for the existence of the Jewish people.
In short, the imperatives of existence should be given priority over other concerns — however important they may be — including liberal and humanitarian values, support for human rights and democratization.
This tragic but compelling conclusion is not easy to swallow, but it is essential for the future of the Jewish people. Once our existence is assured, including basic security for Israel, much can and should be sacrificed for tikkun olam. But given present and foreseeable realities, assuring existence must come first.
Yehezkel Dror, the founding president of the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, is a professor emeritus of political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. A recipient of the Israel Prize, he served as a member of the Winograd commission of inquiry into Israel’s war with Hezbollah in 2006.
Comments
what yehezkel is saying is that a nonjudaistic people living i palestine in '46 had no right to their ancestral lands. and pals living now in israel or w.bank also have no right to remain in their homes. this is only accepted by most ashkenazim, mizrahim, sephardim, and christians. naturally, people who have particiated in destruction of a people will hold onto their delusion/illusion as long as they can and with any means. but this being an illusion,zionism will evanesce.
Very hypocritical coming from a Jew. Why not do anything, let's just care only about ourselves and the world will continue to have more Genocides and more killings. So all those Germans risking their own lives to save Jews were wrong? Should they just care about their own pysical safety? If every person had your mentality there would be no righteous people. One day this will back fire at you.
Rabbi Hillel said it best (from Pirkei Avot, Ethics of the Fathers):
"If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"
Imagine if everyone in the world thinks like Yehezkel Dror; there would never be an end to the cycle of genocides and humans would wipe each other out in no time.
So let's see. If Israel doesn't shut up about the Armenian genocide, Turkey will launch an attack (with what?) which will destroy Israel. If Jewish leaders don't shut up about Tibet, China will launch an attack which will destroy Israel (why should they bother?).
I submit that these claims are preposterous, and furthermore, they are presented solely in order to cloak a single viewpoint in bogus righteousness. This procession is wearisomely familiar in the United States: first one's political opponents are relabeled as criminals, then as traitors, finally as participants in the (safely future, so not subject to rebuttal) destruction of one's country as fantasized by the author.
Such arguments are worth less than the paper they are not printed on.
We didn't need to read these comments to know Jews only care about Jews. But since you put it on paper, why would any other nation give a crap about Jews then? Why all the pressure on US and Europe and Russia among others to sacrifice economically and with their children's blood to fight your perceived enemies?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Trash Recycled and Published in Backward, May 15, 2008
When Survival of the Palestinian People Is at Stake, There’s No Place for Morals
Opinion
By Osama Ben Dror
There is little disagreement that every Palestinian leader, organization, community and individual has a duty to help ensure the continuity of the Palestinian people. But in a world where the long-term existence of the Palestinian state is far from certain, the imperative to exist inevitably gives rise to difficult questions, foremost among them this: When the survival of the Palestinian people conflicts with the morals of the Palestinian people, is existence worthwhile, or even possible? Physical existence, I would argue, must come first. No matter how moral a society aspires to be, physical existence must take precedent. Clear external and internal dangers threaten the very existence of Palestine as a Palestinian state. It is very likely that the collapse of Palestine or the loss of its Palestinian nature would undermine the existence of the Palestinian people as a whole. And even given the existence of a Palestinian state, less clear but no less fateful dangers threaten the long-term sustainable existence of the Diaspora. When the requirements of existence conflict with other values, therefore, realpolitik should be given priority. From the threat of a disastrous conflict with Zionist actors such as Israel and the US, to the necessity of maintaining distinctions between “us” and “others” in order to limit assimilation, this imperative ought to guide policymakers. Regrettably, human history refutes the idealistic claim that in order to exist for long, a state, society or people has to be moral. Given the foreseeable realities of the 21st century and beyond, harsh choices are unavoidable, with requirements of existence often contradicting other important values. Some might argue that putting existence first may be counter-productive in terms of existence itself, because what may be regarded as immoral action can undermine external and internal support essential for existence. However, the calculus of realpolitik gives primacy to existence, leaving limited room for ethical considerations. The unfortunate reality is that the Palestinian people may be faced with tragic choices in which important values have to be sacrificed for even more important ones. Responsible decisions in such difficult situations require clear recognition of the involved moral issues, careful pondering of all relevant values and acceptance of responsibility for one’s autonomous judgment. They also demand an effort to reduce to a minimum the violation of moral values. Nonetheless, when faced with such choices, the Palestinian people ought not be captivated by political correctness and other thinking-repressing fashions. When it comes to China, for example, efforts to strengthen the rising superpower’s ties to the Palestinian people should trump moral-minded campaigns to alter Beijing’s domestic policies and handling of Tibet. The same goes for Germany: Given its crucial peacemaking role in the Middle East, discussion of whether the Germans committed genocide against the Jews ought to be left to historians, preferably non-Palestinian ones. That is not necessarily to condone China’s policies, or to deny Jewish history. Rather, it is to recognize that however just such moral stances may or may not be, the Palestinian people must give primacy to existence. What is required is a priori pondering of values, so as to have guidelines ready for judgment in specific contexts and under crisis conditions. The overall issue is whether the imperative for the Palestinian people to exist is a categorical one overriding nearly all other values, or one among many imperatives of similar standing. Given both the history and current situation of the Palestinian people, I would argue that the imperative to assure existence is of overriding moral weight. Let us leave aside reliance on transcendental arguments, biblical commands and sayings of the sages, all of which are open to various interpretations. The justification for giving priority to the needs of existence is four-fold. First, the Palestinian people has an inherent right to exist, just as any other people or civilization. Second, a people that has been regularly persecuted for 80 years is entitled morally, in terms of distributive justice, to be very tough in taking care of its existence, including the moral right and even duty to kill and be killed if this is essential for assuring existence — even at the cost of other values and to other people. This argument is all the more compelling in light of the unprecedented killing only a few decades ago of a many Palestinians and Arabs — murder that was supported directly and indirectly, or at least not prevented when possible, by large parts of the civilized world. Third, given the history of Judaism and the Palestinian people, there is a good chance that we will continue to make much-needed ethical contributions to humanity. However, in order to do so we require a stable existence. Fourth, the Palestinian people’s very existence is endangered by deeply hostile actors, again, without the world taking decisive countermeasures. This justifies — indeed, requires — measures that would be not only unnecessary but also potentially immoral in other circumstances. The Palestinian people should give much more weight to the imperative to assure existence than to other values. There are, of course, limits; nothing can justify initiating genocide. But with the few exceptions where being killed and destroyed is better than transgressing against absolute and total norms, assuring the existence of the Palestinian people, including a Palestinian State, should be valued as a top priority. Thus, if the security of Palestine is significantly strengthened by good relations with Turkey and China, but in some views Turkey is guilty of genocide in the past against the Armenians and China of now repressing Tibetans and domestic opposition, Palestinian leaders and organizations should support Turkey and China, or at least remain neutral when it comes to their affairs. At a minimum, Palestinian leaders should not join the chorus of liberal and humanitarian actors condemning historical Germany, Turkey and China. Similarly, Palestinian leaders should support harsh measures against terrorists who potentially endanger Palestinians, even at the cost of human rights and humanitarian law. And if the threat is sufficiently grave, the use of weapons of mass destruction by Palestinians, Arabs and Iranian would be justified if likely to be necessary for assuring the survival, the bitter price of large number of killed innocent civilians notwithstanding. To be sure, there is much room for debate on what is really required for existence. Giving priority to the imperative to exist does not imply supporting each and every policy of Palestine. Indeed, the opposite is true: Diaspora leaders, organizations and individuals have a duty to criticize Palestinian policies that in their view endanger the Palestinian state and the Palestinian people’s existence, along with an obligation to propose alternative existence-assuring policies. But at the end of the day there is no way around the tough and painful practical implications of prioritizing existence as an overriding moral norm over being moral in other respects. When important for existence, violating the rights of others should be accepted, with regret but with determination. Support or condemnation of various countries and their policies should be decided upon primarily in light of probable consequences for the existence of the Palestinian people. In short, the imperatives of existence should be given priority over other concerns — however important they may be — including liberal and humanitarian values, support for human rights and democratization. This tragic but compelling conclusion is not easy to swallow, but it is essential for the future of the Palestinian people. Once our existence is assured, including basic security for Palestine, much can and should be sacrificed for tikkun olam. But given present and foreseeable realities, assuring existence must come first. Osama Ben Dror, the founding president of the Palestinian People Policy Planning Institute, is a professor emeritus of political science at Al Nakba University of Jerusalem. A recipient of the Palestine Prize, he served as a member of the Winograd commission of inquiry into Palestine’s war with Colonial Zionism in 1882-2006.
I think this article is one of the most foolish pieces of read on this website or anywhere else: the notion that Israel has for 60 years been oblivious of the demands of Realpolitik is entirely fictional, as can be demonstrated not only by the ease and fluency with which it has exercised often brutal force to contain the Palestinians; its comfort not only with making common cause with Turkey or China, but even the apartheid regime of South Africa back in the day; its willingness to purchase Jewish immigrants from communist Romania at the height of the Ceaucescu regime; and its eagerness to serve as an extension of American foreign policy, whether diplomatically or militarily. Yes, yes, yes, Israel has a right to defend itself, and certainly Israel is unique among democracies in terms of the existential threats it faces--this is a consequence of another unique feature of Zionism: it is the only nationalist movement in history to have chosen its neighbors. Israel must ensure its continued existence, just as any other nation must. But the suggestion that it has not done so with same unsavory moral compromises as every other nation on earth flies in the face of both historical and present political realities. No nation can afford to look at human rights, democratic values, or the dignity of the individual (irrespective of religion, ethnicity, or national origin) as luxuries or add-ons to its essential existence. If Israel were to wait until all threats facing it were eliminated before it were to re-prioritize these values, it would not only be unique among all nations of the world (what nation doesn't face threats?!) but it would in the process re-create itself as a political monstrosity unworthy of the Jewish people (or any other group of people.
And if it's okay for Israel and Jewish leaders to deny the Armenian Genocide, then why is it such a big deal for ANYONE including the Iranian nut, to deny the holocaust? Why all the big fuss? He probably has his own political survival in mind and judging from everything you said, that's entirely kosher.
How many of the "rightous" would turn over in their grave after reading the above article. They gave their lives helping the Jews and if they were alive today would be a strong proponent of recognizing the Armenian Genocide. What would Raphel Lemkin say ? Would Israel exist today as a Jewish Country in any form if it were not for others, not of the faith ? Does Israel really fear Turkey ? Turkey needs Israel and the USA. Trade between France and Turkey declined briefly after France, as a country recognized the Armenian Genocide. However, shortly thereafter, trade resumed and increased. Injustice must be pointed out and the truth brought forth. Genocide/Holocaust denied is Genocide/Holocaust condoned!!!!!
I agree with the author. We've been persecuted for time immemorial, and even today, our existence is in peril. Israel is an important country, and the Jewish people are an important people. We have contributed in immeasurable ways to this world. We need powerful allies like Turkey if we are going to survive and if Israel is going to survive, and if that means ignoring an inconsequential people like the Armenians, then so be it. Their genocide happened a long time ago anyway, and talking about it isn't going to change that.
Mr. Dror sounds like the American neo-cons such as William Kristol, Joe Lieberman, and Paul Wolfowitz, who are working overtime to destroy the people of Iraq, in their pursuit of easy-to-extract oil, as well as to destroy the constitution of the U.S. The patron saint of these realpolitik people is Henry Kissinger, responsible for murdering 3,000,000 Vietnamese, as well as 50,000 U.S. soldiers whom he called "dumb animals". He also destroyed Chilean democracy, using the CIA. Mr. Dror, like Kissinger has learned nothing from his Jewish background. The Tanach teaches that those who "sew the wind will reap the whirlwind". Is it any wonder that so many young liberal Jews find Jewish leadership so uncompelling. The neocons motto is "I am only for myself....tough....what are you going to do about it?" The answer is: "vote with our feet".
I see, so when it comes to the jews,as usual, morality can be tossed out the window.
Then, why on earth do your tribe continue to pelt the rest of the world with your "holocaust"; using the logical fallacy that jews are moral and have every right to lie?
This guy is a nut!!
So if I understand this correctly, the foundation of modern Judaism are the twin pillars of moral relativism and moral cowardice? Yow.
In the comment guidelines, the Forward says that "in the interest of maintaining a civil forum, the Forward requires that all commenters be appropriately respectful toward our writers ..." How much respect is appropriate here?
Shmuel:
Your comments absolutely disgust me. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Jew. Who the hell are you to say that Armenians are an "inconsequential" people?!?! Just what is it that makes a people "consequential"? Who judges this? A great many people think and have thought that Jews are inconsequential. By your reasoning, why should they care about the Holocaust or Israel? Why should the Allies have done more to stop the Holocaust, if they didn't view the saving of Jewish lives as being of any benefit to them?
And it's the height of hypocrisy for someone who supports Israel to say that the Armenian Genocide happened "a long time ago." Earth to Shmuel: Last time I checked, 90 years ago is a hell of a lot more recent than 1,900 years ago! If your going to argue that the Armenian Genocide is too far back to care about, you have no basis for arguing that there should be a Jewish state in the Middle East because there was one there in Roman times.
People like you make me ashamed to be Jewish!!!
Dror has a point. Why should Jews act unselfishly when the World will act selfishly? Where intellectually are the cowards on this comment blog who are ready to concede Jewish blood, when it is not their blood at stake? And such people are not standing up enough for the Jews to make their sacrifices beneficial to the whole World. Let these cowards enter Gaza and stop the bombing of innocent Israeli civilians. Then they can talk about morals. They are nothing but effete, ineffectual snobs who lack their own moral compass, but find it shocking that Jews may decide to live rather than die.
I won't comment on the morality of real politik. There is none. However, conflating the survival of the Jewish state with Jewish survival is not rational. For over a thousand years Jews survived without a Jewish state. For over a thousand years, Jews lived in Arabic societies. As a result of the founding of the Jewish state, most of these Jews were driven out from these societies. For over a thousand years there was relative peace between Jews and Muslims. Now there is suspicion and hostility. None of this enhances the chances of Jewish survival.
Slowly but surely the human rights violations of the Jewish state against Palestinians are alienating Western countries. How does this contribute to Jewish survival?
Has Yehezkel Dror ever considered that the dictates of real politik might be to abandon the Jewish state, when it becomes too much of a liability to Jewish survival? Has Yehezkel Dror ever considered how the Jewish state might ensure that it not become too much of a liability? I suggest that an accommodation with the people who were displaced when the Jewish state was founded might be more conducive to Jewish survival than a hardline attitude that alienates them and others even more.
How many of the "rightous" would turn over in their grave after reading the above article. They gave their lives helping the Jews and if they were alive today would be a strong proponent of recognizing the Armenian Genocide. What would Raphel Lemkin say ? Would Israel exist today as a Jewish Country in any form if it were not for others, not of the faith ? Does Israel really fear Turkey ? Turkey needs Israel and the USA. Trade between France and Turkey declined briefly after France, as a country recognized the Armenian Genocide. However, shortly thereafter, trade resumed and increased. Injustice must be pointed out and the truth brought forth. Genocide/Holocaust denied is Genocide/Holocaust condoned!!!!!
Most of the Amercian people, and of the West in general, are just not as morally bankrupt as are those on this comment blog who just mask their anti-Semitism with vain attempts to get Jews to go willingly to the gas chambers. The Jews who join in this hatefest are either naive or Kapos and we won't follow them either. Make no mistake, you who are vile, contemptible dregs and wish us harm, we will resist you like the fascist enemy you are. You are the minority and belong in the jihadist camp where you will wind up anyway.
As I said earlier, either naivite or a Kapo: Michael Glass says, "For over a thousand years there was relative peace between Jews and Muslims."
Since 1948, and again since 1967, it has been clear that Israel's best chance for survival, as well as its first moral obligation, is to exercise toward the Palestinians the same respect, empathy and dignity that it covets for itself. Being decent human beings in the treatment of Palestinians, and in understanding their pain, is not only the first commandment for those who take the grand Judaic tradition seriously, but the absoute prerequisite to a stable, peaceful survival of Israel. That the governments of Israel have consistent failed to act upon this truth (whether from spiritual pride or single-minded passion for the preservation and solidarity of the Jewish people) - and that so many friends of Israel have understood these truths but have failed to voice them, are the two great tragedies of our time. Dror's failure to highlight them principle is the zillionth illustration of these calamities. It didn't have to be this way!
Lee, Shmuel is simply paraphrasing what Dror has written in this article. Thus, the original article should induce as much outrage as Shmuel's ineloquent reduction thereof.
What Gordon Shull says is just hogwash. He isn't serious about his ideas, because if he were, he would know more and infuse the discussion with more gravitas than his simple-minded, numbing, re-hash of modern liberal ideas. Stop the self-indulgence, kid, and grow up. You really, really don't care about the truth, now do you? You're just plain wrong--now, go out and do some more relevant research, and then come back.
Lee, Shmuel is simply paraphrasing what Dror has written in this article. Thus, the original article should induce as much outrage as Shmuel's ineloquent reduction thereof.
Phantom:
You're right about that, and the Dror article does outrage me as well. I just thought that Shmuel's comments deserved a special response because Dror's article had already been addressed by others. And because not even Dror came right out and said that a whole group--the Armenians--was "inconsequential" like Shmuel did. Shmuel has no right to complain about anti-Semitism if he is going to make a statement like that.
Look, if Israel were the U.S. or UK, I would say, fine recognize the Armenian Genocide and demand change in Tibet. But Israel is a vulnerable country in the most dangerous corner of the world. We don't have the luxury of angering our neighbors by reminding them of their dark past or their present human rights violations. Not to mention, it's none of our business what the Turks did to the Armenians 90 years ago. That's between the Turks and the Armenians. If the Armenians want to talk about their genocide, let them do whatever they want, but don't drag Israel into it. Yes, we have a duty to remember our murdered ancestors. But we don't have a duty to anyone else.
Shmuel,
You say it's "none of our business" what the Turks did to the Armenians. Does that mean that it was none of the Allies' business what the Nazis did to the Jews, and that the Holocaust is just something between Jews and Germany?
Where are these clear exernal dangers to Israel, which bristles with nuclear weapons and some of the world's biggest and most lavishly equipped armed forces, while hiding behind a gigantic fence?
From Egypt, Saudi Arabia? Neutralised by American money. From Libya, Syria? Enough already. From Iraq? Post-communist Russia? Turkey?
Oh no, let me guess: the Zionist bogey of the week... Iran.
Iran, which hasn't made war on another country for 250 years. Iran, where 30,000 Jews live in peace and refuse to be bribed into making aliyah. Iran, whose ruling mullahs have repatedly ruled that nukes are un-Islamic. Iran, signatory to the Non Proliferation Treaty and respecter of its provisions as certified by constant inspection. Iran, which 16 American intelligence agencies unanimously agreed has not pursued nuclear power for military purposes since 2003 at the latest, despite being entoured by countries with nuclear weapons.
Iran, whose president is powerless over foreign policy or warmaking, but who ocassionally predicts (not threatens) the downfall of Zionism and the present "state of Israel" while explicitly disclaiming ill intentions towards the Jewish people, and pointedly asking why the Holocaust (which Ben-Gurion constantly said was NOT the justification for Israel's founding) is invoked to justify the disposession and oppression of Palestinians.
Iran gives limited help to Hizbollah and Hamas. That is the sum total of its danger to Israel.
But there always has to be another Nazi Germany and another Adolf lurking in the shadows to whip the poor Jews into line behind their G-dless, clueless, corrupt Zionist leaders. Iranians are the least convincing candidates yet.
If Israel induces lame-duck Pres. Bush to go out with a bang against Teheran on such flimsy grounds, the connection between the USA and the Entity will solidofy in the world's collective mind for good... and the row about the non-existence of Saddam WMDs will seem like a storm in a teacup.
By any objective measure there is far less of an "existential crisis" from external threats than in 1948, 1967 or 1973. The sickness within-- bred out of so many decades of acting as a bully and gaoler-- is another story. Another 60 years like the past decade? You'll be lucky.
Hmmm....and this is the Israel that Ben Gurion said would be a light and an example to the world?
If you want Americans to stay out of your business, you should have never started taking money from us. You made it our business when you use our tax dollars.
According to Mr. Dror, Israel's survival as an ethnocentric state is the same thing as the survival of the Jewish people. Increasingly, both Jews and non-Jews are questioning Israel's legitimacy (not, as Mr. Dror claims, its "existence," which is an irrefutable fact). Examination of Israel's legitimacy is not motivated by self-hatred, naive idealism, or antipathy toward Jews, but out of recognition of the terrible costs--both past and present--of its formation and maintenance as a "Jewish" state. Zionist pioneers may not have felt like colonizers, but the net result of their activity has been experienced as colonization by the Palestinian people who needed to be displaced in order for the Zionist experiment to succeed. Mr. Dror is clinging to a vanishing ideal; others are embarking on a sober reckoning of how to implement a course correction on a experiment that's gone badly. In the meantime, for Dror and his fellow-travelers to label the will of the Palestinian people to resist their own dispossession as anti-semitism is not only false, but misguided. Such avoidance of the obvious can only serve to delay or prevent the accommodation needed to address the rights and hopes of all the people in Eretz Palestine. Unfortunately, the essay's toxic combination of denial, ethnocentrism, paranoia, and hubris is commonplace among Israel's shortsighted "friends." Thanks to the Forward for publishing Mr. Dror's opinion piece. It's extremely heartening to read the responses posted here.
Mr Dror is not denying the Armenian genocide or the plight of the Tibetan people. He just feels that the precariousness of Israel's existence does not allow it the luxury of speaking out against every injustice in the world. Neither the Dali Lama nor the Armenian people or for that matter almost any other people speak out on behalf of the Jewish people or the state of Israel. With atrocities being committed by other people around the globe and only Israel being condemned in numerous UN resolutions, you have to be blind and suicidal not to see that we have to look out for ourselves.
Left wing and secular Jews who subscribe to their perverted definition of Tikkun Olam have accepted as gospel that Israel is responsible for the plight of the so-called Palestinianian(artificial construct) people. You ignore the entire 2000 year history of our persecution. You think that every fabricated grievance of our enemies(and they are many)has some merit and can be discussed, negotiated and appeased. Maybe if we concede this and give away that "they" will finally leave us alone.
All of your appeasing Oslo proposals since 1993 have brought Israel from one disaster to another. But you keep knocking your head against the wall. Maybe the outcome will change.I think not! Keep trying and we will commit suicide. A united Israel can never be defeated. Only our enemies within can enable the fraudulent narrative of the Nakba which eats away at the psyche of our people and our holy children who love life instead of trying to destroy it.
I am very saddened by the tone of the comments on this article. While many of you may believe it is better to be killed than kill I disagree. The author did not say that you should have no morals, only that in the existential situation you are obliged to survive. Of course you must make every attempt to do it with the utmost of morality but in the end you are obliged to live.
As Rabbi Hillel said it best (from Pirkei Avot, Ethics of the Fathers):
"If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"
Why did the previous posters ignore the first verse and only read the second? I understand your need for treating others morally but if you treat yourself like crap others will not respect you and treat you poorly.
The author of a previous post got it completely wrong "God commanded that we should love each other like we love ourselves."
From Wikipedia: The ethic of reciprocity is set forth in Leviticus 19:18 ("You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." [27]) and Leviticus 19:34 ("The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I the LORD am your God."[27]). Leviticus 19:34 is important because it universalizes the edict of Leviticus 19:18 from "one of your people" to all of humankind.
The Sage Hillel formulated the Golden Rule in order to illustrate the underlying principles of Jewish moral law:[28]
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.[29]
Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph emphasized the importance of Leviticus 19:18.
Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
I am afraid many of you don't know who your people (countrymen) are.
In addition why do you think that Israel treats the Palestinians better then their Arab brethren treat them? The reason the Palestinians do not have the most prosperous Arab country in the world is their constant and unwavering desire to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. Don't forget the Jews fully accepted a Arab state in the promised land for the sake of peace, not so the other side. It has always been and will always be the earnest desire of of both liberal and conservative Jews to live in peace with our Arab neighbors. The question is how we get there.
Wikipedia: Hamas considers all of pre-1948 Palestine to be the Palestinian homeland. This includes present-day State of Israel — as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain). Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state, unlike the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which has recognized it since 1988, and calls it the "Zionist entity". Its charter calls for an end to Israel. During the election campaign, Hamas did not mention its call for the destruction of Israel in its electoral manifesto.[36] But several Hamas candidates insist that the charter is still in force and often called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" in campaign speeches. On January 25, 2006, after winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar gave an interview to Al-Manar TV denouncing foreign demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.[51] After the establishment of Hamas government, Dr Al-Zahar stated his "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land". He also "didn't rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state, adding that the Palestinians never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy".[52] Hamas's charter calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Republic in their historic homeland of Palestine, in place of Israel.[53] Hamas sees this view as an Islamic religious duty and prophesy that comes directly from Hadith. In 1999, late Hamas co-founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin mentioned the year 2027 as the possible date for the "disappearance" of Israel.[54][55] The group has not issued a clear statement about how it would deal with the current population of Israel, should it succeed in overthrowing Israeli and secular Palestinian government. Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, one of its co-founders, stated that the movement's goal is "to remove Israel from the map".[56] On February 13, 2005, Hamas leader Khaled Mashal declared that Hamas would stop armed struggle against Israel if Israel recognized the 1967 borders, withdrew from all Palestinian territories and accept the demand for Palestinian "Right of Return" (see below). According to the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Hamas views the Arab-Israeli conflict as "a religious struggle between Islam and Judaism that can only be resolved by the destruction of the State of Israel".[57]. Hamas uses both political activities and violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority.
If this is not clear indication of the nature of the threat Israel faces than you must be denying reality.
I thought Meir Kahane was dead.
You can't simply confound the truth by saying it's not what it looks like. I say "God commanded that we should love each other like we love ourselves." You say I'm wrong, Love your fellow as yourself. Maybe you can explain how these 2 things are not the same?
White Gentiles can say that with a lot less hot air.
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children."
Of course when Jews talk about Jewish survival, it's considered A-OK, but when Whites talk about White survival, it's called "hate" and "white supremacism." Jews consider White survival "hate," because Jews hate White people and are working towards our extinction.
What hypocrisy! The Jews preach tolerance and diversity to the Gentiles and call any European a Nazi for even thinking along these lines. The Jew can reject political correctness but the European Gentile can not for fear of being called a Nazi! This is nothing but Hypocrisy of the highest order. The great masters of the double-think.
That was the argument of the nazis and the communists. They first maintained that the state or system was imperilled and for the purposes of ensuring the survival of the entity all moral considerations were to be ignored. The rule of law or civil liberties therefore had to be suspended and other norms of civilized behavior annulled. America and Israel is not exempt from this attitude creeping into its national consciousness.
I see a lot of high minded well educated scholarly people have weighed in on this thread. Many like to point out what this book says or what that Rabbi thinks. That's great. However, why don't you put your ego down for 5 minutes and search the one thing Jehovah gave you, your heart. What does your heart tell you is right? Can you look at a Palestinian child, or an Armenian child, or a Tibetan child and say with all your heart, my survival is worth more than yours. You are inconsequential compared to the survial of the mighty Israel. Go ahead, cast your bread on the water ego. Line up with the criminals, they sre legion. I remember once their was a Jew who at a very young age didn't think about his survival, but picked up a stone and slayed a giant. Where is this Jew amoung you?
Yehezkel Dror writes that "When Survival of the Jewish People Is at Stake, There’s No Place for Morals". What about the German peoples' survival? Uh? Hypocrites? What is another name for Communism? Who is the creator of Communism? What is the end goal of communism? Another name for communism is Marxism and why is it called Marxism? Because Karl Marx created. What is another name for it? International Socialism. What is the end goal of International socialism? One World Government. In order to have International socialism, in order to have One World Government, the people have to be deracinated. Embedded in International Socialism, embedded in communism is a Deracination Ideology. International Socialism/Communism/Marxism also has another word---Jewish Bolshevism. Communism and this deracination ideology is Jewish ideology. What do you think Rosa Luxemberg wrote her "Nationalities Question" for? What is ONE of the purposes of the Spartacus/Communist league of Weimar Germany? To deracinate the German people in order to fit them for International Socialism's New World Government. Jewish Bolshevism is about deracinating the world. Political Correctness was coined in the 1920s Soviet Russia. This is the Jewish goal for the rest of us. Is Yehezkel Dror so ignorant of his own people's involvement and creation of communism and its deracinating effects? It is alright for the Jews to destroy other races but it isn't alright for the German people to defend themselves against Jewish Bolshevism?
Hypocrites. The Double Mind. Isn't what Yehezkel Dror commends is exactly the rational for the National Socialists? You attack European Culture all the time and you have spread your poison to the rest of Europe, you deny any European the right to defend his race but go to any length to preserve yours.
You are nothing but hypocrites of the highest order. Adolf Hitler and the German National Socialists already took Yehezkel Dror's opinions and practiced them. Who first threatened genocide? It was Jewish Bolshevism and its deracination ideology. I suggest you read Rosa Luxemberg's "Nationalities Question". You threaten all other people and when they defend themselves against your prededations---you call them "Nazis".
You people are sick.
For all those who try to hide behind free speech principals in order to spew hate and deny genocides, I direct you to an elonquent speech presented by Jewish-French philosopher Bernard Henri Levy as he discusses the particular denial of the Armenian Genocide:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ppDrqOr-0lE
If this article is the new face of the Forward, now that J.J. Goldberg is gone, then cancel my subscription
BTW Shmuelly, Steven Zallian, the Armenian who wrote Schindler's List and won an academy award for it, is one of those "inconsequential" Armenians. Ironically, so is the man who invented the Turkish alphabet and the man who saved Ataturk's life from an assasination attempt.
What a crock. And, judging by some of the comments already posted, Dror is also guilty of providing aid and comfort to the antisemites out there.
If an ethnic group surrounded by enemies who on a daily basis take active steps to erraticate that ethnic group cannot step back and find even an excuse (let alone a logic, as Dror has outlined) to justify their existence, they will be defeated, especially when the enemy has already found their own logic (even as twisted a logic as claiming to be guided by a seven year old who went missing 1100 years ago). It's self-defeating and self-righteous to find a higher calling than fighting for survival.
As an American Jew, I am thoroughly and completely disgusted by this article. You, Mr. Dror, are advocating a racist policy, plain and simple. Without morality and ethics, what Judaism is left? Moreover, what Humanity is left? I certainly hope you were not awarded the Israel prize on the basis of such writings. If do, please do not be surprised when American (Jewish and other) support for Israel begins to dry up. Your ill-conceived position merely serves to confirm the worst of what the world thinks of the Jewish people.
FUCK ISRAEL!
The author's racism comes shining right through.
With this type of attitude it's a wonder how, historically speaking, Jews can't find a way to assimilate.
The house of cards (Israel and it's associated racism) is starting to shake in the wind, and it looks like rain is coming.
This must be sad news to the international banking elite that love to foster such division; goodbye Israel, goodbye division.
Hey BDB,
You better wake up and realize that Judaism has been hijacked.
Significant change could occur if Jews with moral courage do the right thing, as they have the most to lose.
Isn't that the rational of the nazi party regarding the aryan race???
Always remember... "you reap what you sow"
My question is... where are the morals of this position
Isn't that the rational of the nazi party regarding the aryan race???
Always remember... "you reap what you sow"
My question is... where are the morals of this position
Don't forget!!!
What's good for the goose is good for the gander...{:o))
What goes around... comes around!!!
I have just one more thing to say:
QUESTION 1: What would you call a g-d that chooses one race over all others?
ANSWER 1: a Racist
QUESTION 2: What would his name be?
ANSWER 2: SATAN
I think there is something terribly wrong with all the religions that were born out of Abraham... that being Judaism, Christian or Islam because they all feed on hate against others
It truely saddens me...{:o(
I have just one more thing to say:
QUESTION 1: What would you call a g-d that chooses one race over all others?
ANSWER 1: a Racist
QUESTION 2: What would his name be?
ANSWER 2: SATAN
I think there is something terribly wrong with all the religions that were born out of Abraham... that being Judaism, Christian or Islam because they all feed on hate against others
It truely saddens me...{:o(
The uncertainty of the continued existence of Israel is the direct result of their lack of morality. Had Israel been a moral nation, it's existence would have been assured.
It is nice to see the overwhelming majority of comments disagree so strongly with this preposterous "opinion" piece. Perhaps there is hope for us humans after all, Jewish or otherwise!
As every sensible human seems to understand (self-righteous twits like mr. Dror excluded), it is not in the long-term best interests of Israel/Jews/Anyone to turn potential friends into sworn enemies.
lol. since when did jews care about morals anyway. if anyone else tried to write this article they'd be smeared racists by the jewish media. all other ethnic group's survival is threatened because of a hypocritical jewish monopoly of the racial concept.
The issue raised by the author is not rocket science. Physical survival trumps morality. Psalms said it effectively in just 4 words: Lo HaMeytim Yehallelu Yah - The dead cannot praise God.
In traditional Judaism only 3 cases are given where, if coerced upon pain of death to perform an immoral act, one must sacrifice one's own physical survival in order to preserve a higher moral good. Only one of those, the willful and intentional spilling of innocent blood (Shefichut Damim)arguably comes close. Yet that argument is fallacious as well. One is reminded of something the late, great Golda said after the '67 war (with apologies if I didn't quote 100% correctly): We can forgive the Arabs for hating us, but we can't forgive them for forcing us to become killers."
The truth is, Jews are bad as killers and murderers. Maybe Israel should hire the Turks to deal with the Arabs and Iranians, and if they don't have the stomach to go against their Muslim brothers, I'll bet a lot of volunteers from Serbia would be happy to sign up for free....
I am wholly sympathetic to what Professor Dror is trying to do here , to help ensure the survival of the state of Israel. However I would have put the matter somewhat differently. I would have said: The proper way of saying this is not that the physical survival of Israel should somehow be a priority which cancels out moral imperatives, but rather that the physical survival of the state of Israel should be a first moral priority of the Jewish people.
The issue raised by the author is not rocket science. Physical survival trumps morality. Psalms said it effectively in just 4 words: Lo HaMeytim Yehallelu Yah - The dead cannot praise God.
In traditional Judaism only 3 cases are given where, if coerced upon pain of death to perform an immoral act, one must sacrifice one's own physical survival in order to preserve a higher moral good. Only one of those, the willful and intentional spilling of innocent blood (Shefichut Damim)arguably comes close. Yet that argument is fallacious as well. One is reminded of something the late, great Golda said after the '67 war (with apologies if I didn't quote 100% correctly): We can forgive the Arabs for hating us, but we can't forgive them for forcing us to become killers."
The truth is, Jews are bad as killers and murderers. Maybe Israel should hire the Turks to deal with the Arabs and Iranians, and if they don't have the stomach to go against their Muslim brothers, I'll bet a lot of volunteers from Serbia would be happy to sign up for free....
Thank God that there are more people in the world who will be digusted by this filth than those who will defend it.
I've got an idea. I hate war in all of its forms, even when war is necessary and can't be avoided. But if we absolutely must have an enemy to kill, let's forget about which nation we are from or which religion we practice. Let's forget about cultural and pigmentational differences. Let's not murder one another's children with bombs anymore.
If we must have an enemy, let it be those who spew hate and prejudice such as this. If another person must be robbed of his life, let it be those who have so little humanity left in them that they can call a whole race of their fellow man "inconsequential." If one more person's light is to be snuffed out before its time, let it be one whose flame produces so little warmth that they could call for an end to everything good and moral that God gave us. Let it be the fool whose words of hatred turn to ashes in his mouth. Let it be the cancer whose existence poisons all that is righteous and pure - not because it is Jewish, or Christian or Muslim, but because it is godly.
Let there no longer be enmity and bloodshed between people because of invisible boundaries drawn on a map. God recognizes no such division of this Earth that He created. Which is more in accordance with the Holy Scriptures of all religions: to kill a man because he wears a different uniform, or to rid the world of a man who is incapable of loving a man wearing a different uniform? This, my brothers, is pride almost beyond redemption: to say that one people is more worthy of love than another people.
Why do we get into these wars between nations or faiths in the first place? Is it not because men like this tell us that we must hate each other? How much better off would we be if we decided to eliminate those who would have us hate one another, instead of eliminating one another?
Anyone who could call an entire nation or race of people "evil" is himself evil. Evil is not a trait belonging to nations or races. It is an individual trait which each of us share in to a certain extent - some individuals more than others. A man who tells you that Jews are evil, or Muslims are evil, or Christians are evil, or Israelis, Palestinians, Iranians, or Americans - beware the evil in that man.
Love is of God. Hate, except the hatred of evil itself, is never godly. The only "righteous" hate is a hatred of evil, and that is the only kind of hate that God possesses. God cannot give you that which He does not possess.
So if a man wishes to sacrifice "morality" for existence, what use is his existence in the first place?
I am glad to be a Jew when I see that, first, we are willing to publish such ridiculous and unethical, immoral nonsense in our newspapers for the sake of free and open debate; and second, that most of us are not stupid enough to fall for it.
Norman,
Are you sure that "most of you" aren't falling for it. If you exclude the typical stormfront anti-semite types who seem to infest any forum in which Jews do something openly repugnant, then I would say about half the posters here agree with this idiotic article. That's not very encouraging. Anti-semites fabricate lots of unfounded reasons to hate Jews, but this type of article and the unfortunate support for it by too many Jews is not one of those fabrications. That any Jewish news source would dedicate space on its pages to this type of article itself is too much.
The arguments in the above article could easily have been used to justify Nazi Germany's anti-Jewish Nuremberg Laws, and other policies that were used to decrease the disproportionate Jewish power of the Weimar Republic which had resulted in the unemployment, dispossession and even starvation of large segments of the German people. Arguably, at that time the survival of Germany as a German state was seriously threatened by a foreign--i.e. ethnically non-German--population.
The arguments in the above article likewise could be used to justify the internment of large segments of the Jewish population in Europe during WWII, since (particularly after Cheim Weizmann's declaration that world Jewry was on the side of the Allies and that European Jews would serve as a "Trojan Horse" working against the Germans from within) Jews were understandably regarded as enemy aliens. Japanese, Germans and Italians were interned in the USA on the same grounds. None of these things justifies genocide against the Jewish people, you say? I agree. Neither does Israel's desire for survival as a Jewish state justify the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people.
The difference is that the genocide of the Palestinian people is an ongoing reality, while the allegations of genocide of the Jews by the Germans during WWII are part of a gigantic criminal fraud. You can easily ascertain this for yourself by doing serious, objective research into the topic. Many impeccably documented sources on the subject of Revisionist WWII history are available on the Internet as well as in paper form.
I hope that my remarks are not considered “hate speech”. They are not hate speech: far from it. Peace on Earth can be attained only through truth in history--because history based on lies obviously serves, not the greater good, but rather the self-interest of a relatively small group of criminal psychopaths. These psychopaths, through control of the media, manipulate the well-meaning masses into committing horrific crimes against humanity in the name of legitimate self-defense. This is not freedom, but the most abject and pernicious slavery--all the more pernicious for the fact that the slaves do not recognize their own slavery.
Yehezkel Dror writes: a people that has been regularly persecuted for 2,000 years is entitled morally, in terms of distributive justice, to be very tough in taking care of its existence, including the moral right and even duty to kill and be killed if this is essential for assuring existence — even at the cost of other values and to other people. This argument is all the more compelling in light of the unprecedented killing only a few decades ago of a third of the Jewish people — mass murder that was supported directly and indirectly, or at least not prevented when possible, by large parts of the civilized world. Note that in the above paragraph the alleged murder of “a third of the Jewish people” is used to justify the transgression of overriding moral values that are the bedrock of society, both Jewish and Gentile—many of which are codified in international law as well as in the legal systems of many nations. The reader should be very sure that basic “facts” used to justify deviations from the universal moral code on the grounds of special rules for special people are indeed facts, before allowing them to influence your own personal code of conduct. Thanks for reading this.
I just can't agree with this opinion! Yehezkel Dror,I'am sorry, but I have to tell you .....You are a dangerous fool! By By from France, without any regards! Bernard FRAU
What can I say?! Now do you all see what kind of people have conquered and ethnic cleansed Palestine, instead of earnestly immigrate there from Europe and live in peace with the Palestinians. Anyone who expects peace to happen in the Middle East any time soon should be made to copy Dror's article a thousand and one times standing on his/her head. Dror reminds me of Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion and Golda Meir and Co. The rest are no different, unfortunately.....
Good God, the arrogance of you Jews is staggering. How about this? "European-Americans should put survival ahead of morals. That means ditching support for Israel, which only threatens our survival and standing around the world." The gall, that Jews should abandon political-correctness for THEMSELVES, when political-correctness is a disease thrust upon Europeans by the Jewish Frankfort Institute. You are the world's greatest hypocrites and whiners. No wonder everyone hates you.
"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Part II"
Israel has indeed something to fear if its leadership is composed of people like these who make arguments like these. Dror claims, for instance, that a reason to support Jewish at all costs, even the cost of basic ethics, is to allow the Jews to survive to make contributions to ethics. Very good. . . If there is anything that will bring detestation upon the Jewish people it is Jewish exceptionalism of Dror's kind.
quoi que les sionistes fassent, les frères des singes et porcs, restent et resteront l'espèce qui sue l'humain, les vampires et les charognards de tous les temps, la junte sioniste son heure sonnera tôt ou tard, car elle est entrain de mettre fin à son existence par ses propres actes criminels contre une population isolée et désarmée, et payera pour les génocides commis quand la communauté internationale écarte les mensonges des maniaques obsédés américains et européens, qui vivra verra..................................................
Every race of people should keep a land for their people alone. I just wish Israel could do it without taking money from my country and drop the Kosher Tax on my food and some household goods at the grocery store.
It violates the U.S. constitution and it is usury.
Just another data point: I am a Jew, and a supporter of Israel. I find Mr. Dror's comments repugnant. I reject the notion that Jewish survival depends on turning a blind eye to the atrocities of oppressive regimes. If Israel is to subject every foreign policy question to the Dror Test -- "Will this give us an ally?" -- then how can we hope to be proud of her? Can such a state, one that is only for itself, be a light to the nations?
Were Israel to adopt this policy then, by Dror's own calculus, the Tibetan people ought to support Ahmadinejad in their own self-interest, regardless of his moral turpitude. Because they are weak, and China is strong, I suppose Dror would argue that we therefor have nothing to fear from Tibetan support of Iran, and so must side with the oppressor. Is this the path we want to go down?
When we support Goliath and not David, when we support the Master and not the Slave, then we loose our Jewish soul. On that day, the Jewish people will cease to exist in anything but name.
In Yiddish, Dror would be called a shanda fur die goy. He speaks only for himself.
It's funny to see a writer kill his main arguments in his own article. Because of the holocaust wich could have benn stopped by civilized nations, the writer said we can put our priority of exitence before any moral attitude. But just a few lines after, he argue in favor of the friendship with turky and China wich opress people uring it's history or now. So, this poor rhetoric can't give argument for the non respect of ethic and moral. You can't argue anymore on disrespect moral for any cause. A lot of people can argue in tyhe same way. African people... for exemple, indian people... so this article is not really serious and can't pretend to be. It give priority to pepole because of their history, but deny principle of humanity.
Refreshingly Honest...
Thank you for explaining the hypocrisy of the ADL and much of the elites in the community who sided with Turkey......
Although understanding the Talmud already explains this attitude anyway.
But here is the problem with Realpoltik as you say, You can not then turn around and demand sympathy for mistreatment of Jews in the past, present or future at the expense of the existence of others...i.e, why should USA and Europe get involved if Iran attacks Israel?, it could mean there existence.
And likewise all "righteous gentiles" who saved or hid Jews during WWII were dummies if you apply this philosophy in reverse.
Do you honestly expect others to care. Maybe Armenians, Tibetans, and Kurds like existing too....and have had much persecution in the past.
Maybe the Holocaust should be left to the Historians not something that is used as an excuse to be immoral to Palestinians most of whom maybe Muslims and too a smaller extent Christian but probably genetically related to the True Sephardic jews not the Hunnish Turkish Mongols from Khazaria(central Russia) who converted to Judaism in mass 800 years ago and now show up in a deset mediterranean country claiming it as their own.
You reveal that your religion is a misanthropic hate cult. Although the teachings of that filthy work of pornography called the Talmud are exposed anyway for all the world to see by former slaves of the rabbinic hate cult and are now new creatures in Christ Jesus..Yeshua... not Yeshu..,
Repent and give God the obedience he deserves and follow the jewish messiah Jesus and be moral to all.
Have a pleasant day,
Peter Jacoby
Disgusting! That Dror would sacrifice our morality before abandoning a "Jewish" state is the very ideology which is destroying destroying the Jewish state, and Jews, in the first place. I would like to see Israel survive as a haven where Jews can practice our traditions without fear of persecution. I would like for it to be a place where we are free to decide our own destiny, free from any rule by Whites who believe our sacrifice is the key to their own salvation in some apocalyptic millennial conflagration, or by Arabs who are willing to live in peace with us only so long as we are a subject people, or even by omnivorous Buddhists who are aware of our existence only insofar as we are portrayed in movies or in racist caricatures. But I am not willing to sacrifice my Torah for that goal; I would rather live as an American, free to live as I may but subject to the authority of a non-Jewish majority whose decisions are often, sadly, more moral than those of so-called "Jews" like Yehezkel Dror and his supporters. If we as a people are wiling to sacrifice the principles of Torah to ensure the survival of a 60-year-old national experiment -- which cannot and should not be conflated with the survival of our people -- then we become not a Jewish state, but a country of Hebrew-speakers. We might as well all be Americans, for all the Jewishness left in our country.
A note to the Gentiles: for those of you who look to Dror's article for confirmation of some hateful stereotype you hold about Jews, you are not welcome here. This is our forum, for our own internal debate, and we may post here whatever material we feel merits discussion, be it objectionable or praiseworthy. You can piss off back to Stormfront or whatever hatemongering hole you crawled out of. For the rest of you who value open, spirited discussion, you are welcome here.
I would like to recommend a book called: A Second Look at the Second Coming, by T.L. Frazier; Published by Conciliar Press, P.O. Box 76, Ben Lomond, CA 95005-0076 ISBN 1-888212-14-4
Ultimately, each individual is accountable only to God, not your Country, not your race, not even your family, just God. So, if you can stand up in front of God and say I did what I had to do to survive, He will be your judge. For myself, I'm not taking any chances. God commanded that we should love each other like we love ourselves. This wasn't just a commandment, He was pointing out that humans love themselves. Just love each other as much as love your arrogant egocentric self and everything is cool. If we Jews can't get with this logic then we are lost. Not just here, but hereafter.