Forward.com

Few extremely important facts should be added to make the issue more clear. We would make a compromise with Greece by adding an adjective to our state constitutional name to distinguish both geographic Macedonian territories, but what they indeed want is to wipe us as a nation. It sound like a paranoid claim but unfortunately there it’s true. Do they have any reason at all to destroy a nation in 21 century???? Follow my explanation and conclude by yourselves: The Slavs are actually settlers on the whole of Macedonian geographic area and have called themselves Macedonians for ages (there are solid historical written proves). BUT WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY 60 YEARS AGO? Well, 60 years ago, most of the Macedonians Slavs, -who were a majority population in today’s Greek Macedonia, - were brutally driven away by the Greek royalists. The banished Slavic Macedonians scattered all over the world. Some are still alive (alive proves!). Can you imagine that they are still banned by “the very democratic Greeks” even to visit their ancestor’s graves. In order to return and re-settle in their homeland they must declare themselves GREEKS BY GENE. DOESN’T IT SOUND LIKE A RACIAL POLITICS IN 21 CENTURY!!!! I understand the reactions of the young Greeks since many of the new Greek generations do not know this part of the history as it is kept secret. (just refer to the chronicles from 60 years ago –there is an abundance of confirming information.). The young Greeks were also never thought that Yugoslavia consists of 6 different republics among which Macedonia. AND NOW , FOR NOT DISCLOSING THE FACT OF THE EXODUS OF MACEDONIAN SLAVS AND THE EXISTENCE OF THEIR NEIGHBOR MACEDONIA, THE GREEK AUTHORITIES HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOME ARGUMENTS. What they’ve come up is a severe, vicious propaganda in order to totally wipe us. They shamelessly say that we are artificial nation and forcing us to change our country’s name. We have accepted some proposals by the US mediator – they do not accept – they just want such that would exterminate our roots. Can you imagine that in 21 century Greece does not recognize any minority- all their citizens should be GREEKS BY GENE – it is stated in their jurisdiction?

Enough is enough already, Macedonia has always been Greek. FYROM, do us all a favor and stop claiming Greek history.

I seem to have found a flaw in one of your arguments. In reference to your analogy with Franc Kafka, can we not say that Alexander was in fact a "Greek speaking Macedonian King" just as Kafka was a “German-language Czech Jewish writer” making them Macedonian and Czech, respectfully? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Alexander was Slav. All I'm saying is that modern Macedonians are as Slav as the Greeks are, since the Slavs in fact inhabited the Peloponnese. A province's name can never have priority over a country's name. If any change to the name is to be done, it should be the province that has its name changed (Province of South Macedonia perhaps? Or maybe just go back to "Northern Greece" as it was prior to 1988).

I respect your position on the matter of Macedonia. Your claims and historical evidence is just fine. Though i would like to provide you, and other readers, some information to show how the Macedonians are not Greek. Simply put if Macedonia was always "greek" why did the greeks try to hide its existence, and why did the Greek government deny its existence until the 1980's. Also now with recent actions made by the MACEDONIANS and there quest to enter NATO and the EU, all of a sudden the Greeks now "love Macedonia" when they tried to eradicate its very existence. Very IRONIC. Simply put, the greek side of things is always flip-flopping. Nothing is consistent in there story. Why, because they have to take the time to say what’s right at that point in history. 1) The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians have shown us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs along with culture and tradition. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages. 2) Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian victory, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria. 3) The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). It is very important to look at your own people who simply put it that Macedonia was not Greece. I believe some quotes would help you understand. 1st quote: "For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign." 2nd: "For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death." There is nothing in the ancient literature to suggest that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land. On the contrary, the ancient authors knew the difference between the Greek city-states and the kingdom of Macedon. Ancient and modern authors report: 1 "While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Plutarch, 'The Age of Alexander' [Plutarch here specifically distinguishes Greece from Macedonia.] 2 M.Cary in his book "The Geographic background of Greek and Roman History" (ICBN 0-313-23187-7) I find the following constituent parts of Greece: Epirus, Acarnania, The Ionian Isles, Aetolia, Thessaly, The Spercheu Valley, Locris, Phocis, Boeotia, Euboea, Attica, Aegina, Corinth, Achaea, Elis, Arcadia, Argolis, Laconia, Messenia, The Greek Archipelago, Crete, The Outer Isles, The Northern Aegean, The East Aegean, Rhodes, .......... and of course, No Macedonia. Why M. Cary would omit Macedonia from the general description of Greece? Perhaps for the same reason the German classical scholar Bursian failed to include Macedonia in his otherwise comprehensive geographical survey of Greece "Geographie von Griechenland". Macedonia was simply different country than Greece. 3 On p. 91 in "Hellenistic World" by F.W.Walbank we find: "It is necessary, in any assessment of the role of Macedonia in the hellenistic world to bear in mind that although our sources naturally, being Greek or based on Greek writers, lay their emphasis on Macedonian policy towards Greece, Macedonia was in fact equally a Balkan power for which the northern, western and north-eastern frontiers were always vital and for which strong defenses and periodic punitive expeditions over the border were fundamental policy." ".... Macedonians were an essential bulwark to the north of Greece". [Self-explanatory] 4 In N.G.L.Hammond's book "The Macedonian State" on p. 141 states: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions." [The operative word is "foreigners-especially Greeks", which shows that even Hammond forgets to tow the line.] 5 In "Makedonika" by Eugene Borza on p. 164 we read: "Alexander seem to have imported troupes of performers from Greece." [One does not import from his own country, does he?] 6 Plutarch "The Age of Alexander" "Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264] I feel that a list of ancient historians who have clearly stated that Macedonia is not Greece should be noted. Those historians being... Diodorus - Plutarch - Pausanias - Livy - Herodotus - Justin - Isocrates - Ptolemy - Polybius - Demosthenes - Arrian Curtius Rufus - Josephus - Thracymachus - Pseudo-Scylax - Thucydides - Strabo - Pseudo-Herodotus - Ephoros Finally, I feel that it is important to include a list of modern day professors, organizations and authors who clearly state that Macedonia is not Greek. 1) EUGENE BORZA- Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University 2) ERNST BADIAN- Department of History at Harvard University 3) PETER GREEN- Professor of Classics at the University of Texas 4) A.B. BOSWORTH- Professor of Classics and Ancient History, the University of Western Australia 5) N.G.L.HAMMOND- Professor of GREEK University of Cambridge 6) ULRICH WILCKEN- German Professor 7) DAVID G. HOGARTH- Author of Philip and Alexander of Macedon 8) AMERICAN PHILOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION

Macedonians (not Greeks) have, according to several mtDNA and HLA genes studies, most likely inhabited the Balkans and surrounding regions for as long as 35 000 years. That makes us the oldest people in Europe together with the Basques. The Slavic race most likely did not suddenly appear from nowhere in the sixth century. The historic certainties that you rely on in your assumptions are nonexistent and therefore damaging for your reasoning. You are however far from alone in your mistaken belief. It's hard to even fathom the scope of misconceptions and faulty so-called historical facts that have been constructed for political purposes the last 100 years. I suggest you take some time and read Vic's comment. It far from covers all bases of the issue, but it's a beginning. However distant these facts may be to you I still urge you to dig deeper into the question. Think of the implications if what I say is true. And after you have thought think about why the Greeks are so frantically opposed to notion of The Republic of Macedonia.

Philologos, the name of the country is Republic of Macedonia. It has the word, "Republic" in front of it, so the Greeks won't confuse it with their newly renamed, 'Greek Province of Macedonia'. Why don't you step up to the plate and acknowledge what this is all about? Let's talk about the persecution of the Macedonian minority in Greece -- which according to the Greek government doesn't exist. Let's talk about Greece's ongoing cultural genocide of the Macedonian people. You're smooth, Philologos, but you're not honest.

I think it is right to respond to a completely inaccurate comment by GORDANA : "....BUT WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY 60 YEARS AGO? Well, 60 years ago, most of the Macedonians Slavs, -who were a majority population in today’s Greek Macedonia, - were brutally driven away by the Greek royalists." The alleged fact that Slav-Macedonians were the majority in Greek Macedonia is a blattant inaccuracy. In the 1928 census, conducted in Greece under the inspection of the League of Nations, the Slavic speakers were found to be 82.000 in a total population of 1.400.000. Not all of them were alien to Greek national consousness : A lot were bilingual or spoke only Slavic but had a Greek national consiousness. These people were, and still are called by the FYROM people "Grkmani"= "maniac Greeks". GORDANA forgets that in 1923, after the Lausanne Treaty, more than 500.000 Turks and 150.000 Bulgarians left Greek Macedonia exchanged for Greeks from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Bulgaria : More than 650.000 Greek refugees replaced the Turks and Bulgarians. So the percentage of Slavic speakers in 1948, as in 1928, was hardly 6%. If we deduct the "Grkmani" = Greeks out of them, we reach the real numbers of people counting themselves as Slav-Macedonians. GORDANA forgets another thing, too : These Slav-Macedonians sided with the Greek Communists under the agreement of carving out Greek Macedonia from Greece. This is called High Treason. The royalists, on the other hand, were the legitimate Govt of the time, supported by USA and ALL the Free World. CONCLUSION : GORDANA's story was absolutely wrong on the numbers and the reason of the pushing the Slav-Macedonians out of Greece : They were but less than 4% in Greek Macedonia, they waged a war against Greece aiming to carve Greek Macedonia out of Greece,, and they lost it. And we cannot accept back people who attempted to detach parts of the Greek body. Neither any country in the world would. ANDREAS SYGGROS, Greek from Thessaloniki, capital of Greek Macedonia

I believe your article is biased and doesn't capture the true argument. It's easy for me to say "why don't you divide Israel and give Palestine back to its people", but it would be ignorant of me to comment since I don't know the history. At face value everything seems simple. Apologies for offending the state! The Macedonians conquered Greece, whom feared the barbiarians and who were also banned from the Olympics. Greece did its best to suprese the Macedonian language, culture, minority upon capturing the land in 1912 under ironic treaty in Bucharest. Only in 1988 did Greece change the name of the province to Northern Macedonia in anticipation of Yugoslavia's division, prior to this the name and its people, language and culture was forbidden. Now my great grandfather and his batillion capture and beheaded by Greek solders in 1913 will be turning in his grave at the most ridiculous bilateral dispute in the world. Now Yugoslavia was the only country to uphold its obligations of the treaty and recognise the MAcedonians. All other countries Bulgaria, Albanian and last but not least Greece, did everything in its power to wipe out the culture. The treaty is a well documentated part of history and I'm very surprised you have overlooked this and referred to obvious Greek propoganda. Please investigate French, Roman and Turkish european history and you will be amazed on what you'll find.

to George(better Georgief)and all Fyromians How can you explain I who I am Greek know what the names mean in Greek Alexandros (Alexander in English) Phillipos (Phillip his father) Bukefalas (his horse) Can you please tell me their meaning since you claim that your dialect(mostly Bulgarian really) was the language of Alexander the Great and that you are his descendents.?

Obviously philologos (sounds Greek to me) is educated in the historical aspects of language. My comment is that during the Biblical times if you look at the maps of what is now Eastern Europe it clearly shows a country of Macedonia but does not reflect anything by the name of Greece. All that I could find is Thessolonia, I guess that is the claim that Greeks have territorial rights over the name of Macedonia. In college we were taught that King Phillip and Alexander are from Macedonia, is what I am stating not true? It is true and it is in any map reflecting that time frame which is completely undisputed. What you see here is Greece trying to rewrite history and lay claims to a history that is not theirs. In fact the city of north Greece, Macedonia, was not even named Macedonia until 1912, right before the redefining of the borders in the treaty of 1913, where at that time the north city of Macedonia in Greece was actually in the country of the Republic of Macedonia proper today. If anyone disputes my statements just look in the bible at the maps of the disciple Paul's journeys; unless of course you don't believe that the Bible is accurate.

The Racist nationalism of the Tito founded nation of FYROM keeps bringing up discredited DNA reports to smear Greeks the way neo-Nazi Nordicists try to use bad DNA studies to prove their racist nonsense like katernia did. Do these FYROM backers understand that 'The Forward' is a Jewish American news source and such racist slanting against Greeks or any people would not stand them in good light? That the DNA report they are pushing on here is from an anti-Semite who was discredited? Here is the refutation: Arnaiz-Villena's research was internationally reported following the publication of a paper on the genetic history of Jews and Palestinians, in the journal Human Immunology. This became controversial because of its assertions about the origins of the Palestine/Israeli conflict. Following strong criticism, it was withdrawn from the journal and deleted from the scientific archive. The comments about Arab-Israeli conflicts were described as "extreme political writing", which included claims that Palestinians were placed in "concentration camps". Arnaiz-Villena was removed from the journal's editorial board. Earlier papers on ancestral ethnicity by Arnaiz-Villena and co-authors had already created controversy. A paper on the genetic relationship between Greeks and Macedonians had concluded that "Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups." The conclusions of the paper were related to the "Black Athena" debate and became embroiled in disputes between Greek and Macedonian nationalists. After the Human Immunology controversy, a number of geneticists led by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza also criticized the claims in this paper, stating that, "using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics". Another paper on the origins of Mesoamerican populations also made claims concerning multi-ethnic origins of populations. Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute. We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit. Neil Risch Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA Alberto Piazza Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA HLA genes are not used as a valid measure to determine ancestry since HLA genes, which control immune responses and are subject to environmental selection. This means they're not reliable in determining ancestral affinity, as using them thus can find bonds of kinship between Greeks and Japanese, as well as between Nordics in Iceland and Negroids in the Congo (Mourant et al., 1976).

Eugene Borza: "The emergence of a Macedonian nationality is an offshoot of the joint Macedonian and Bulgarian struggle against Hellenization. With the establishment of an independent Bulgarian state and church in the 1870s, however, the conflict took a new turn. Until this time the distinction between “Macedonian” and “Bulgarian” hardly existed beyond the dialect differences between standard “eastern” Bulgarian and that spoken in the region of Macedonia." "…the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians." "The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival." "It is difficult to know whether an independent Macedonian state would have come into existence had Tito not recognized and supported the development of Macedonian ethnicity as part of his ethnically organized Yugoslavia. He did this as a counter to Bulgaria, which for centuries had a historical claim on the area as far west as Lake Ohrid and the present border of Albania." (“Macedonia Redux”, Eugene N. Borza, The Eye Expanded: Life and the Arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity, Frances B. Titchener and Richard F. Moorton, Jr., editors) Hammond (Alexander the Great: A Reader, Publisher: Routledge): "What language did these `Macedones' speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means `highlanders', and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such as `Orestai' and `Oreitai', mean ing 'mountain-men'. A reputedly earlier variant,`Maketai', has the same root, which means `high', as in the Greek adjective makednos or the noun mekos... At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `Greeks wearing the hat'. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a dis tinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modi fied Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive. Whatever the nature of "Macedonian" proper, Attic (Koiné) Greek was the language of official discourse and public inscriptions used in Macedonia in classical times. All of the over 6000 inscriptions found in Macedonia until now are in Greek." And, http://en.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg Photo: Skopje, February 2008– Former Yougoslav Republic of Macedonia’s Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, lays a wreath on the monument of national hero Georgi Delchev, to which a map of the so-called “Greater Macedonia” is attached; the map includes considerable part of Norther Greece, including Greece’s second-largest city Thessaloniki and the Halkidiki peninsula. This is no less than 30% of the territory of Greece -a 55-year-old NATO member. Can this be the behavior of a friend and perspective ally?” So, What’s in a Name? A challenge for regional stability *Why is the Maredonian question so delicate and complex? The term “Macedonia” is not exclusively related to a specific state. Rather, it has always been used to delineate a wider geographical area, approximately 51% of which is part of Greece, 37% is in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, 11% in Bulgaria and 1% in Albania. The choice of one state alone to monopolize the name “Macedonia” - the largest part of which lies outside its borders - neither reflects geographical and political reality, nor contributes to stability in the Balkans. Why does Greece oppose the name ”Republic of Macedonia’? “Republic of Macedonia”, or just “Macedonia”, fails to solve the problem, as it does not distinguish this new country from the Northen Greek region of Macedonia, or from the parts of the wider Macedonia, which are also in Bulgaria and Albania. Furthermore, it is associated with the argument for the unification of “Greater Macedonia” - a policy conceived by Stalin and Tito and pursued by the leadership in FYROM to the present day. The name is therefore linked with an ongoing policy that foresees territorial claims to a part of Greek territory, that has had a Greek Identity for more than three millenia, and is associated with immense pain and sufferning by the peoples in the region. *Why does Greece support a compound name? Greece, unlike FYROM, has made great strides to try to resolve the name issue under U.N. auspices and has gone more than half-way to find a solution. It has sat at the negotiating table since 1995 and has shown willingness to consider a compound name such as “North Macedonia”, which includes the term “Macedonia” but attaches an adjective to it to distinguish it from the Greek province with the same name. This is sensible, reasonable and fair for both sides. A win-win solution. *Why is it time to end the debate? Today, the conditions for achieving a breakthrough are better than ever. Greece is the single largest investor in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). Athens supports FYROM’s bids for NATO and EU membership, but this crucial issue must be resolved first. Alliances and partnerships can only be fostered among countries if there is good will, mutual trust and good neighbourly relations.

We can pretend that Macedonia harbors no irredentism against Greece. But then as their gov't officials make all too clear, they actually DO: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=101042 Read this: "This map illustrates the 'knot' in the aftermath of the Balkan wars. It was the first time in history, after the Bucharest peace conference (1913), in which Greece stepped on Macedonian land and got the territory as far as below the city of Manastir (Bitola in Macedonian). By exchange of population, mainly with Greeks from Anatolia, the ethnic Macedonia was transformed into a part of the Greek state." This gov't official is wrong. According to historian Mark Mazower, Greek Macedonia was equally divided in 1913 between Greeks, Slavophone natives (whatever you want to call them), Jews and Turks. There were 250,000 Greeks living in Salonika alone. The ethnically cleansed Greek settlers arrived later and made the region into a predominately Greek one. This was not "the first time" Greeks had set foot there. The ambassador is just spewing some unfortunate historical biases. Now, that my friends, is some deeply nationalist, fascist propaganda, brought to you by the likes of people that never got over their losses in the Balkan Wars, in their support of the Axis powers, and in Tito's attempt to change the name of Vardar Banovina to Macedonia, in line with Comintern principles, in order to wrest away Greek Macedonia. The next time a Macedonian utters the words, "Greek Macedonia," will be the first time, as they prefer to use the term, "Aegean Macedonia," coined by Tito in his bloody war against Greece. Aegean Macedonia is unliberated territory, don't you know. I'm sure Greeks would be much more generous in sharing the term Macedonian were it not for the nationalists and propagandists north of the border. I appreciate Philologos's attempt to venture into ancient history. I personally have no problem with the Macedonians adopting Alexander the Great (though I would note that Macedonians bristle and go crazy when the Bulgarians adopt Gotse Delchev as their own). It's not about ancient history. It's about nationalist revaunchist politics now. The person claiming that Greece just recently started adopting the name Macedonia is so full of you know what. Read Mazower's history Salonika. You'll see that the Greek community in the region started Greek cultural organizations taking the name of Macedonia over a century ago.

Yes you do have north and south Korea but their official names are the Republic of Korea and the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea... North and South Korea are not the official names of these two states as mentioned, they are used because it is needed for people like Greeks because of their own stupidity! Greek DNA shows no link to ancient Greece, in fact modern Greeks have been shown to have more in common with Ethiopians as a whole than with Europeans. Macedonians speak Macedonian, it is in fact the Bulgarians who speak Macedonian. When did the Bulgars arrive in the Balkans from Asia? 7th century was it? They certainly didn't speak the language they speak now. They spoke a Turkic language and dropped it for the language of the region - ie. Macedonian... So funny how the Bulgars adopted a language and now try to tell the people whose language they adopted that it is Macedonian which does not exist? Wake-up son!! Logic dictates that you wake-up, Bulgarians speak Macedonian!

TO VIC,SAID: SIR, YOU COMMENT,S AT PHILOLOGOS IS WRONG !WITH ALL MY RESPECT DO YOU KNOW WHAT MEAN HELLINAS? what make one helline ? what mean barbaros barbarians ? those who has not nobility those which has not the right attitude ! the greeks use to call any one born greek or not barbaros he isnot hellen !repeat again even if you born in athens if you are not nice , if you not have the right attitud he is not hellinas its babaros ! such with the ( greek city state macedonia )that why they had hellinas professors teachers to educate them ! so alexandre speaking greek so his father and the rest ! so he try to spraid hellenism to then world no macedonia ! even to day the greeks call one barbaro if he is not right human been! see tradition !why he go east ? because persians invate his country hellas OK.TO HE SAY SHE SAY HAS DIFERENT MEAN OBJECTIVE ! SORRY FOR MY TYPPING I AM ONE OLD MAN WITH BAD VISSION , BUT READING NOTICE TOO MANY PHILOSOFERS TO DAY SAING THINGS WITH OUT TO KNOW THE PEOPLES TRADITION !THANK YOU MUCH HAVE ONE NICE EVENING.

Another defining moment of the truth of the Republic of Macedonias existance: The following is an extration of the Treaty of Bucharest, August 10, 1913 obtained from the website http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/boshtml/bos149.htm GREECE'S GAIN IN TERRITORY. The boundary line separating Greece from Bulgaria was drawn from the crest of Mount Bela[word deleted]cha to the mouth of the Mesta River, on the Aegean Sea. This important territorial concession, which Bulgaria resolutely contested, in compliance with the instructions embraced in the notes which Russia and Austria-Hungary presented to the conference, increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000. The territory thus annexed included Epirus, southern Macedonia, Salonika, Kavala, and the Aegean littoral as far east as the Mesta River, and restricted the Aegean seaboard of Bulgaria to an inconsiderable extent of 70 miles, extending from the Mesta to the Maritza, and giving access to the Aegean at the inferior port of Dedeagatch. Greece also extended her northwestern frontier to include the great fortress of Janina. In addition, Crete was definitely assigned to Greece and was formally taken over on December 14, 1913. Someone please stop the madness...

as ancient Macedonia part of the “Greek-speaking world,” and was its royal family “Greek”? The fifth century BC historians Herodotus and Thucydides repeatedly describe the Macedonians as fierce people on the outskirts of what was called “Hellas” though what that word even meant remains unclear. (See Jonathan Hall’s recent book, Hellenicity.) Herodotus gives the Macedonian royal family (not the population) a Greek origin, but, like much in Herodotus, this story is hard to prove. The royal family did bring in Athenian philosophers and dramatists -- but this proves nothing about ethnicity. Turning to the modern era, “Macedonia” far predates modern Yugoslavia. It appears, for instance, on maps from the 1840s. Discussing Kafka, Philologus seems oblivious to the Peace of Westphalia which established the principle of European sovereignty in 1648. Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state, and Kafka a citizen. He was of course immersed in German and Jewish culture, but “Czech” remains a wholly appropriate term to use for him. By Philologus’ logic, quite a few citizens of our own country could be called “un-American.” (Would it have been so hard for Philologus to ponder what “citizen” means?) And sovereignty is a basic principle of the international system. Since when has a country had the right to dictate a neighbor’s name? Philologus provides no parallels, because they don’t exist. Right now, the Republic of Macedonia is impoverished, with high unemployment and few economic resources. Readers who are old enough will recall that in the 1950s and 1960s, Greece was in similar straits. One economist at the time lamented that the only valuable mineral there was bauxite, and that remittances from abroad provided a massive part – one third, I think -- of the Greek budget. Things are different now, thanks in part to European Union membership. It is very strange to see a country that once was poor now bully its neighbor. Moreover, the bullying is counterproductive. Greece needs a stable Balkan area, unless it wants ethnic conflicts to increase on its borders. And it desperately needs to clean up the Vardar – Axios River, which is full of dangerous material. How eager will the Republic of Macedonia be to cooperate when pushed around in this manner? Fortunately, there are countervailing forces. Greece is the number one investor in its northern neighbor (over $1 billion) and also a significant trade partner. Thessaloniki is the Republic’s port of convenience. There is good reason to hope for a positive outcome, if cool heads prevail. Hotter heads will try to prevent a solution, as always. An Athenian friend criticized name-issue extremists in the 1990s, and found swastikas painted on his house. But there is no good reason to continue this dispute. Dan

“Dear” James. I would advice you to read the genetic studies with a bit more attention. As it shows in the study, it’s performed in Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain, and IT IS published in the Science Magazine of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. The study is NOT “commissioned” by the Macedonian government or sponsored by any Macedonian institution, but actually from the Spanish Ministry of Education and the Madrid regional Government! The study is performed on thousands of people from 31 different countries and populations (including Greeks, ethnic Macedonians who live in Greece, French, Spanish…..)! Here some parts of the study: "The Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan Peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mucaenian Greeks about 2000BC.""Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans and do not show a close relationship with Greeks.""Much to our surprice,the reason why the Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analysed, was their genetic relationship with SUB-SAHARAN ethnic groups now residing ie Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa.""Macedonians are NOT related with the geografically close Greeks, who DO NOT belong to the "older" Mediterranean substractum”. This certainly PROVES that:1 We are NOT Slavs (because they came in 600 b.c.), 2. We are distinctive population from the Greeks.3. This distinctive group (ethnic Macedonians) exist in today’s Greece, and they are constantly denied, not provided with their human rights, and assimilated. If you “greeks” don’t believe the latest science known to the man kind, than what would you believe? I guess history books written by Greek historians. This just shows how stubborn, shallow and egoistic you are. No wander your politicians turn the whole greek population in to nationalists. This just shows how easy is to brainwash a Greek.

If Prime Minister Gruevski is smart he should insist that the Greek government recognize that the slav-Macedonian people are a separate people, and a chair of slav-Macedonian studies be set up at the University of Thessalonike. And, most importantly, that the slav-Macedonian minority be given their rights. In exchange, FYROM will compromise on the name.

It truely saddens me that even a people as persecuted as the Jewish were cannot see what this is all about. It saddens me even more that a Jewish site would publish an article that is obviously untrue. This "name issue" has 0 to do with history and is 100% about the athenian government destroying the Macedonian identity. You see the athenian governemnt believes that there are no minorities within it's borders. Everyone is pure greek. The Macedonians living in greece have been presecuted for decades and are not alowed to publicly state they are Macedonian. Just the other day a priest who identified as Macedonian had his house stoned with rocks and eggs, was verbally abused and has been since abused on several TV shows in greece. Is this the type of tolerance we should expect of a member of NATO and the EU? The behaviour of the above institutions and the athenian government is disgusting but the truth is coming out. Just before the summit the Macedonian government idicated it would accept the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)yet the athenians still used their veto. This clearly shows that it is nothing to do with the name but again the Macedonian identity. As for the Republic of North Macedonia, I would happily accept this when greece's NEWLY named provice of Macedonia, breaks away and calls itself the Republic of Southern Macedonia. Do you now see how obsurd this suggestion is?

Dera Peter, 1)YOU SAY :Macedonians represents the majority of the Greek Macedonia population as of today and as of 1928, or as of 320BC. I quote from a FYROM source: According to SIMOVSKI Summary of "the Inhabited Places in Aegean Macedonia" Volume I by Todor Simovski Institute for National History, Skopje, Macedonia 1978 ".... From totally 2.000.000 inhabitants in Macedonia on the whole before its partition, more from the half of it, in other words, 1.163.477 inhabitants lived in Aegean Macedonia. The national structure of its population, which, as a result of the five century slavery, met with serious ethnic changes on the eve of the Balkan Wars, was the following: Macedonian Christians about 326.000, Macedonian Moslems 41.000,Turks 295.000, Greek Christians 240.000, Greek Moslems 14.000, Christian Vlachs 46.000, Moslem Vlachs 3.500, Albanian Moslems and Christians 9.000, Jews 60.000, Gypsies 30.000, and the rest from other minorities. " Allthough SIMOVSKI is hardly to be taken as objective ( he fails to see even one Bulgarian in Greek Macedonia !), he accepts that "Macedonians" were just 28%, Greeks 20.6%, Turks(*) 31%, Vlachs 4%, Jews 5% and others 11.4% [ (*) including all Moslems, they felt Turks and left for Turkey]. So SIMOVSKI clearly contradicts you : "Macedonians: were NOT the majority in Greek Macedonia. And, naturally, SIMOVSKI has swelled the numbers of the "macedonians" at the expense of all others..... So, according to undeniable records of the League of Nations, almost 650.000 people (500.000 Turks and 150.000 Bulgarians) left Greek Macedonia during 1920-1923, AND NOT AFTER THE CIVIL WAR IN 1949, AS YOU WRONGLY SAY, AND I HOPE YOU DO NOT DO IT INTENTIONALLY...... WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE IN SIMOVSKI ? He counts only 296 +41 +14+4 = 355.000 Turks and NO Bulgarians at all ! He is mistaken by a margin of 650.000 -355.000 = 295.000 souls !!!!!!!!!!!!! 2)YOU SAY :“Grkmani” as a word does not exist in the Republic of Macedonia, and never has existed. Just visit the "Macedonian" website www.maknews.com and every third word is an insult against Grkmani....... 3)YOU SAY :Greece is in the list of top ten countries in the world for Human Rights Abuses, only because of the Greek treatment of the minorities in Greece. There is only one aknowledged minority in Greece according to the Lausanne Treaty, the Moslem one. It was named so under the insistence of Kemal Ataturk. There are small numbers of Jews and Armenians, who thrive in Greece and have never asked for minority status. The only minotity NOT recognised for obvious reasons [ High Treason against Greece in 1944-49 ] is the Slav-Macedonian. As for your accusations, better leave propaganda aside, my friend. 4) YOU SAY :You were very correct to mention the exchange of population that happened after the civil war in Greece. Those people that inhabited the Greek part of Macedonia are Macedonians as much as the people who were there before them. The people who inhabited Salonika from other parts of Greece or from Bulgaria are people who lost their homes, or didn’t have any home, and by acquiring the homes of the Macedonians that were forced out they became home owners. NOW HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM IN THE NAME MACEDONIA, GREEKS IN MACEDONIA KNOW THAT THEY HAVE SOMETHING THAT DO NOT BELONG TO THEM AND ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO THREAT BY THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA THEY ARE WORRIED, NOT BECAUSE WE THREATEN YOU, (WE HAVE NO POWER TO THREATEN YOU), BUT BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF YOU LIVE IN A HOUSE THAT BELONGS TO SOMEBODY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORTHER. You seem not to know history my friend. The population exchanges took place NOT after the Civil War 1946-1949, but much earlier. The population exchanges took place from 1920 to 1923, after -2- international Treaties : The Neuilly between Greece and Bulgaria, and the Lausanne between Greece and Turkey. The 650.000 Greek refugees took the houses of the Turks and Bulgarians (that SIMOVSKI fails to see...), and NOT of any "Macedonians". The Greek assets in Turkey and Bulgaria were many times bigger than the assets of Turks and Bulgarians in Greek Macedonia : Greeks were mostly rich merchants, the high class of local societies, compared with shepherds and low class people that were the bulk of the exchanged Turks and Bulgarians. So, the refugees live in houses THAT HAVE BEEN EXCHANGED FOR THEIR MUCH BETTER HOMES IN TURKEY AND BULGARIA, my friend, and not in the houses of the poor shepherds and cattle breeders that most "Macedonians" had been. We liberated the land of Greek Macedonia with much blood, and is ours for ever, it does not belong to anybody else. 5) YOU SAY :Stopping Macedonian to integrate in NATO and EU is another crime that involves us, (me and you) simply because we are present in this comedy and we represent different views. FYROM had undertaken the obligation to make some changes to the name of their country. This was the Interim Agreement of 1995. For 13 long years, backed by USA, FYROM politicians played cat and mouse with Greece, doing nothing. In Bucarest, they were sure that USA allmighty would squeeze tiny Greece to succumb. It seems USA did not count France, Spain and Italy, who supported Greece, or Britain, that abstained from taking parts, or Germany etc who understood our case and did not react againts us. So, there was no crime. Your politicians overestimated the "convincing" abilities if Bush Administration. And stood intransigent. And payed for it. I wonder to see where the crime is. After Bucarest, Greece repeatedly called them back to negotiations, REAL AND NOT FAKE, this time. If FYROM politician continue making fake negotiations, there is no case of FYROM entering NATO. It has been made very, very clear in Bucarest. ANDREAS SYGGROS

lets add a little science to the mix, and address the false testimony of those who like to insist that modern day Greeks and not Greeks. Modern day Greeks are virtually identical to ancient Greeks. This is reported in a recent anthropological study sponsored by 150 German, French, Russian and American scientists, and published in several scientific journals. In fact the scientists state that they found the results shocking when compared to other European states. The only other country that is comparable is Japan. In response, the Skopjean government commissioned it’s own study (which has never been published or accepted by the scientific community) claiming that modern day Greeks are related to Ethiopians and that the Japanese are Sub Saharan Africans. Very funny and pathetic, but what do you expect from a group of people that think the ancient Macedonians were Slavs and that Greeks have been erasing the evidence that would prove their ethnicity.

How many times does Macedonia have to be partitioned? The first time was in the early 1900(1903 to be exact) when the land was partitioned into three parts, one of which greece took and claims it was theirs thousands of years ago(again this happened in 1903). Now you ask to partition the name. When does it stop? Even though the current government has stated openly and in their constitution that they are not interested in that land greece is not happy. I would remind greece that they also agreed years ago that they would not do as they did based on the name. DOES GREECE EVER KEEP THEIR WORD? I wonder what else they will want even if the Macedonian government does agree to another name. Possibly the blood of every Macedonians first born. The last question I have is how can the EU and NATO be a supporter of a member when they openly disregard minority rights (greece does that every day and everyone in those organizations turns their heads as though it does not happen). I will tell you first hand that it does happen and the world needs to wake up and stand up before things get worse. Thank you to all that are aware and appreciate the truth. ALEKSANDAR

I would love to see a link to that study James

HELLENIC REPUBLIC Top secret MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SECURITY NATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE Athens, 16 February 1982 ……….. Number of protocol 6502/7-3042…. (…..) INTRODUCTIONS a. The Skopians' activities for the autonomy of Macedonia may be efficiently confronted mainly by wiping out the use of the idiom, in the regions near the borders. This opinion is based on the realizations that also other regions that in older times were the center of "Macedonism", like Kastoria, are not hit by the Skopian propaganda, because there the use of the idiom has been almost wiped out. b. This element by itself would be enough to exclude any thoughts of repatriation of the P/R (political refugees) who now reside in Yugoslavia and who have been brought up with the "Macedonian idea", the "Macedonian language and culture", independently of their participation or not to the organizations SNOF, NOF and activities taken for detaching Greek territories, during the period 1946-1949. c. As for the above it is imperative to: 1. The creation of a state institution that will depend from the Prefectures of the regions near the borders, lined with the suitable and specially trained to the "Plot against Macedonia" subject, personnel. This institution will engage itself only with this subject, with the supervision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and will collaborate closely, but in secret, with the Security Authorities and all the public services (Tax office, Schools, Army, Church, etc.). 2. In the public services and especially in the educational institutions the employees who will be in service have to be ignorant of the local idiom. 3. The establishment of special enlightenment seminaries, for all the public service employees and the clergy who are in service in the sensitive region of Macedonia. 4. The establishment of motivations for the obligatory residence of the public servants and other employees, in the quarters of their service (example: payment of the rent, extra pay, etc.). 5. Establishment of Cultural Association, like "ARISTOTELIS" in Florina and economic help to them, for the realization of events and the publishing of books, newspapers, magazines, etc. and afterwards these will be sent to the Diaspora abroad who has origins from the regions of the senders. This will boost their national sentiment and they will be protected from the anti-Hellenic propaganda that is been practiced by S/M (Slavmacedonians) organizations. 6. Insertion of various obstacles (non-recognition of diplomas, postponement of military service, etc.) for the Greek students who wish to study in Skopje. 7. Marking in each village of persons who, due to their kin bounds and their personality, influence a large circle of co-villagers and with any means (even with money payments) get close to them and use them properly so they will behave as the fighters of the use of the idiom in their circle. To this direction a very positive and effective role can be that of the Youngers of the political parties, by the judgment and coordination of the Government, when a between parties agreement will be reached. 8. Recruitment in the Armed Forces, in Police Bodies, in the public services and Organisms of employees with origins from Florina region, by exception, and their obligatory location in other areas of the Country. 9. The encouragement, by the leadership of the Army, of meetings and marriages of Army officers, who are on duty there and have origins abroad, with women that speak the idiom. (…) THE CHIEF DIMITRIS KAPELARIS ANT/GOS THIS IS THE WAY GREEK DEMOCRACY WORKS AND BEHAVES TO ITS CITIZENS. STILL TODAY SOME OF THE ABOVE "SUGGESTIONS" ARE APPLIED AGAINST THE MACEDONIANS.

why dont we call israel palestine.why dont you change your name philogas hellass.you havnt got a clue on the macedonian history i suggest you read BORZAS in the shadow of olympus.SAY MY NAME MAKEDONIJA ONLY ONE MAKEDONIJA.

I agree with BT. Call it Greek Macedonia.

The argument that the Macedonians were not Greeks is irrelevant. Unless we can determine through DNA testing that an individual is a descendant of Alexander(or some know Macedonian), then that individual is not Macedonian, by blood. This is true of individuals in Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria or India for that matter. What is left is calling oneself Macedonian by virtue of the region. This is exactly the argument the Greek government has been using. There is Slavo-Macedonia, Bulgar-Macedonia, and of course Hellenic-Macedonia. Then what right do the Slavo-Macedonians (FYROM) have to lay claim to the identity of the Heleno-Macedonians? None. Yet this is what they are requesting the world community agree to, by claiming "The Republic of Macedonia". This is unacceptable. Not because there are no individuals in Slavo-Macedonia who could be descendent from the ancient Macedonians. We do not know. Same for Bulgar-Macedonians and Helleno-Macedonians. We do not know. It is a regional issue, not a bloodline issue. The name should have a regional prefix, much like the author states. Furthermore, if any region has the closest ties to the ancient Macedonians, it most definitely have to be the regional, Hellenic-Macedonians. One final comment about the labeling of the Greek stance on the issue as "silly" and "stupid" and "meaningless". Why is the focus on Greece? If it so "meaningless" then, why does the FYROM government simply pick another name and move on? After all, FYROM's acceptance into NATO and EU is at stake. Why risk it over a "silly" issue? Obviously, it is not so silly to FYROM, or Greece. Only the short sighted minds of the US officials and press see it this way.

The argument that the Macedonians were not Greeks is irrelevant. Unless we can determine through DNA testing that an individual is a descendant of Alexander(or some know Macedonian), then that individual is not Macedonian, by blood. This is true of individuals in Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria or India for that matter. What is left is calling oneself Macedonian by virtue of the region. This is exactly the argument the Greek government has been using. There is Slavo-Macedonia, Bulgar-Macedonia, and of course Hellenic-Macedonia. Then what right do the Slavo-Macedonians (FYROM) have to lay claim to the identity of the Heleno-Macedonians? None. Yet this is what they are requesting the world community agree to, by claiming "The Republic of Macedonia". This is unacceptable. Not because there are no individuals in Slavo-Macedonia who could be descendent from the ancient Macedonians. We do not know. Same for Bulgar-Macedonians and Helleno-Macedonians. We do not know. It is a regional issue, not a bloodline issue. The name should have a regional prefix, much like the author states. Furthermore, if any region has the closest ties to the ancient Macedonians, it most definitely have to be the regional, Hellenic-Macedonians. One final comment about the labeling of the Greek stance on the issue as "silly" and "stupid" and "meaningless". Why is the focus on Greece? If it so "meaningless" then, why does the FYROM government simply pick another name and move on? After all, FYROM's acceptance into NATO and EU is at stake. Why risk it over a "silly" issue? Obviously, it is not so silly to FYROM, or Greece. Only the short sighted minds of the US officials and press see it this way.

I thank 'The Forward' for this intelligent article. It takes a people with a sense of history like that of the Jewish people to understand the importance of historical legacies. Like the Greeks, the Jewish people also lost their homeland and saw members of their family scattered and lost to time. Just like there were many tribes within the Hebrew ethnos so was the case of the Greeks and Macedonians. The 'Forward's' readers themselves can see the attempts by the nationalists of the Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (FYROM) to make racist claims that the Greeks are not related to the ancient Macedonians and trot out Hitlerian like claims of Macedonian racial purity and so on to bolster their case. FYROM nationalists on this forum and elsewhere post such Hitlerian like racialist claims denying the Greek ethnicity of ancient Macedonians and claiming Greeks of the modern world are themselves not linked to the ethnic Greeks of the past. It seems that while such claims may pass without comment in Skopje's nationalist circles it is it is jarring to read such comments by an American, be he Greek, Jewish or otherwise. Such chilling claims by nationalist claims are not lost on Jewish people of this era as well. You can not blame the Greeks for who also have a sense of history like the Jewish people still remember the words of the USA during the closing days of WW2: Foreign Relations Vol. VIII, 868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944 "The Department has noted increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government (of USA) would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian forces" against Greece". U.S. Secretary of State Stettinius

Thank you Philologos, for instilling some sense and logic into this issue. I believe both sides need to accept a mutually accepted agreement and reflecting the historical and current reality of geographical Macedonia. Slav-Macedonians need to accept that Ancient Macedonia was an integral entity of the Greek world, that eventually became a multicultural region during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman eras. As such, they cannot claim sole ownership of the term “Macedonia”, as this clearly carries irredentist connotations against neighbouring Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, and distorts historical reality. This ideology is not of the 21st century and the Slav citizens of the FYROM and their diaspora must stop living in the past, and objectively look at their own history and place in the world.

Dear Philologos, The pseudo-Macedonian sect - pseudo of course means fake in Greek - and their absurd claims to that they and not the Greeks are the ethnic descendants of the Macedonians of the ancient world reminds me of the racist British Israelite movement that claimed that the British people and by extension the peoples of Northern Europe were the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel and that modern Jews are not linked to the Jews of old but Khazars or other such slurs. This is the type of racial delusions of (some of the) people whose national capital is Skopje that the Greeks have to confront. I praise 'The Forward' for the bravery of Philologos to tackle this matter and to endure the FYROM-Skopje attacks against you.

I don't think squabbles of history are very helpful in solving this dispute. Modern Macedonians have a right to call themselves what they wish as long as they don't usurp or offend a neighbouring country. I think modern Macedonians need Greece more than Greece needs them, so it doesn't pay to be stubborn with a new name. It seems that the very existence of modern Macedonia is at risk of disappearing off the map if a compromise solution isn't found with Greece and Albania. To me, the whole issue is rather pathetic and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But for the modern Macedonians, the issue threatens their existence and if they don't climb down from their position then i fear they will pay the price. Maps and history won't matter when modern Macedonia implodes due to the pressures felt due to being outside of NATO/EU. It's not right, it's not fair but that's life.

FYROM you must find a new way to identify yourselves without offending Greece. The United States has spent more than enough money in your country by establishing CAMP BONDSTEEL and creating a new American Embassy in your country. The USA has also spent way to much money for mediation concerning the name issue. Stop copying what Greek Macedonia established and start creating your own history. The Greek Government can foresee the future and Greece will protect itsself and its history. The United States also found it very convienient to recognize the name Macedonia from FYROM when congress was not in session. If this is the way goverments are going to act then Greece needs to protect its heritage. We have a lot of PRIDE in OUR Macedonia. KOZANI GREECE

The southern Yugoslavians had been given a choice by Tito: Call yourselves Bulgarians, and you will be tortured/killed. Call yourselves Macedonians and you may live freely. Tito did this to tear the western region away from Bulgaria. What do you suppose the poor farming population of southern Yugoslavia chose to do? There is simply no way around this fact. Tito commited acts of genocide directly to the Bulgarian nationals and terrorized them in to changing their identity. Good luck in the future as a new country. With Greece next to you, you will prosper.

Greece was formed in 1820s in an effort from the western powers to weaken the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Macedonia was never Greek until a part of it fell under Greek control in 1913. A massive exodus of Macedonians took place afterwards. Those people and their children want their land back. The Greeks are now selling BS to the world as always. But for how long.

The argument that the Macedonians were not Greeks or who are true Maceonians is irrelevant. Unless we can determine through DNA testing that an individual is a descendant of Alexander(or some know Macedonian), then that individual is not Macedonian, by blood. This is true of individuals in Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria or India for that matter. What is left is calling oneself Macedonian by virtue of the region. This is exactly the argument the Greek government has been using. There is Slavo-Macedonia, Bulgar-Macedonia, and of course Hellenic-Macedonia. Then what right do the Slavo-Macedonians (FYROM) have to lay claim to the identity of the Helenic-Macedonians? None. Yet this is what they are requesting the world community agree to, by claiming "The Republic of Macedonia". This is unacceptable. Not because there are no individuals in Slavo-Macedonia who could be descendent from the ancient Macedonians. Some may be, most not. We do not know. Same for Bulgar-Macedonians and Helleno-Macedonians. We do not know. It is a regional issue, not a bloodline issue. The name of the country should have a regional prefix, much like the author concludes. Furthermore, if any region has the closest ties to the ancient Macedonians, it most definitely has to be the regional Hellenic-Macedonians. One final comment about the labeling of the Greek stance on the issue as "silly", "stupid" and "meaningless". Why is the focus on Greece? If it so "meaningless" then, why does the FYROM government simply pick another name and move on? After all, FYROM's acceptance into NATO and EU is at stake. Why risk it over a "silly" issue? Obviously, it is not so silly to FYROM, or Greece. Only short sighted minds lacking vision and out of touch with the realities of the world would label it this way. Like the US officials, for instance.

EASY !!! There was no greece until 180 years ago. Philip was king of Macedonia, Philips wife was hellenic, Alexandar was Macedonian he was born in Macedonia. Macedonia was broken up between Serbia(now republic of Macedonia / Greece / Bulgaria / Albania in 1913...therefore how about all the other countries give back Macedonia its Land ! Alexandar was Macedonian. !

EASY! If the Greeks are so in love with Macedonia, why don't they change their name to "Former Macedonian Republic of Greece"?!? That way they can claim both Philip and Alexander as their own. It is NOT a name issue, although the Greek government in Athens has succeeded to present it as such in front of the World's general (ignorant) public. I, for one, as a Macedonian will accept any other name as long as nazi-Athens accepts that I AM Macedonian and speak the Macedonian language. Of course, they'll never agree to it, just proving the point that they want to wipe out anything and everyone Macedonian. Read yer history books!

Thank you for wasting my time reading this drivel. As uninformed piece as I have read in a long time. Only the Greeks can delude themselves that they have been unchanged since Aristotle was a little child (and few hundred years before him for good measure), but the rest of the Balkans has been overrun by Slavic tribes. Your suggestion about solving the name dispute by comparing it to North and South Korea would be completely correct and right, had there been two sovereign, independent countries wishing to use the name Macedonia. But there is only one country using the word Macedonia. And there the whole Greek argument falls apart. However, contrary to popular belief, the name issue is not central to this situation between Macedonia and Greece. It is the Macedonians' right to call themselves Macedonian, and the Greek denial of their existence, either in Macedonia but especially in Greece. That is at the core of the whole problem.

The skopians rave on about "conspiracy theories"; deny that their forefathers were Bulgarian; and claim Greece only recently renamed northern Greece, Macedonia! What an angry and bitter group of people they are! They are afraid of losing their identity, and they cling to their miserable past. You are slavs. Ancient Macedonia is apart of Greek heritage! You cannot prove anything using genetics or examining peoples' blood! Language, culture, history, religion-that is who you are! The best you'll get from a Greek is to call you slav-Macedonian. And if there are any Greek citizens in northern Greece, who feel slav-Macedonian, then we will give them rights-as soon as the name issue is resolved. But we're not political fools. Gruevski can even make it a condition, that if FYROM compromises on its name, Greece must allow slav-Macedonians the right to express themselves in Greece.

We cant even talk about Macedonia and Macedonians being radical or spred that.People are just so so disappointed from Greek veto and of course they dont want to go in Greece for the vacation.Its so small country that cant make any bed to Greece.Not even with economy,not even with teritoral occupation,neither name issue problem.The only one think can do is just the north teritory i n Greece to suffer from the people they were spending money for holidays in that region.All of you shoud ask only one thing,,Why Greece does all this?-Let me tell you.1.1946 macedonian from Greece were pushed away from the country, people opposite the government.All this people are now inside of ,,Republic of Macedonia''and they have the documents of the land immobility etc.Greek goverment is affraid if all this people ll go on the courth ll take their land2.Greece is not recognizing Macedonian minority WHICH they have 2 million,and with all this people they will be more so,Greek goverment made decision,no minority macedonian.Not even here no where.So,the name Macedonia not even important for Greeks but the nation in ,,Republic of Macedonia'' and the minority in Greece-macedonians more then impportant so they are going to show even more radicalisam then with veto.Big shame europian country with so closed brain.But little countries must MUST listen the BIG once.Shame for all Europe to be with closed eyes in front of, watching of break the human rights,international low for every body to choose the name of the country,national identity and language.SHAME.MACEDONIAN PEOPLE ARE SO CALM POPULATION THATS WHY THEY GAVE ALL THE RIGHTS TO ALBANIAN MINORITY IN THEIR COUNTRY.BELIEVE TO THIS THEY SAFER,NOT TO THIS WHO TALKS TO MUCH LIKE GREECE.

IT IS OBVIOUS TO ME AT THIS POINT THAT NONE OF THE COMMENTATORS EVEN BOTHERED TO READ THE REST OF THE COMMENTS. FOR ALL THOSE COMMENTATORS THAT SUPPORTED THE ARTICLE, ESPECIALLY THE PART REGARDING THE "CONNECTION" BETWEEN ANCIENT MACEDONIAN AND ANCIENT GREEKS, PLEASE READ THE FIRST COMMENT POSTED (BY VIC). AS OPPOSED TO THE ARGUMENT GIVEN IN THE ARTICLE AND SIMPLY CONCLUDING WITHOUT ARGUING THAT THE MACEDONIANS WERE IN FACT GREEK, VIC USES QUOTES AND REFERENCES TO MAKE HIS POINT AND IT IS A POINT WELL MADE. IF YOU WISH TO ARGUE OR DISPUTE WHAT WAS SAID BY HIM (LIKE YOU DISPUTE EVERYTHING MACEDONIAN) THEN PLEASE DO SO IN THE MANNER THAT HE DID. IN A CIVILIZED AND PROFESSIONAL MANNER. P.S. I REALIZE WHAT VIC HAD WRITTEN IS LONG AND YOU ARE NOT USED TO READING, BUT DO TRY. THANK YOU

Please edify yourself on correct facts before writing and posting an article for it is your ethical duty to present true and accurate facts to our readers. Macedonia was taken over and split apart in several pieces in 1913 under the Treaty of Bucharest. The takeover of Macedonia in 1913 "increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000." Source: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=gZ_Sbgm3ReIC&printsec=frontcover">http://books.google.com/books?id=gZ_Sbgm3ReIC&printsec=frontcover</a> There is nothing ancient about 1913! See also a 1925 Time Magazine article on Macedonia which was published long before “Yugoslavia came into existence.” Source: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0">http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0</a>,9171,719711,00.html Finally, please see ACTUAL Greek citizens who are living in MODERN Greece, but are PRESENTLY discriminated against by the Greek government because of their Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonian religion, Macedonian language, and their unique cultural identity. Source: <a href="www.florina.org">www.florina.org</a>

Was ancient Macedonia part of the “Greek-speaking world,” and was its royal family “Greek”? The fifth century BC historians Herodotus and Thucydides repeatedly describe the Macedonians as fierce people on the outskirts of what was called “Hellas” though what that word even meant remains unclear. (See Jonathan Hall’s recent book, Hellenicity.) Herodotus gives the Macedonian royal family (not the population) a Greek origin, but, like much in Herodotus, this story is hard to prove. The royal family did bring in Athenian philosophers and dramatists -- but this proves nothing about ethnicity. Turning to the modern era, “Macedonia” far predates modern Yugoslavia. It appears, for instance, on maps from the 1840s. Discussing Kafka, Philologus seems oblivious to the Peace of Westphalia which established the principle of European sovereignty in 1648. Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state, and Kafka a citizen. He was of course immersed in German and Jewish culture, but “Czech” remains a wholly appropriate term to use for him. By Philologus’ logic, quite a few citizens of our own country could be called “un-American.” (Would it have been so hard for Philologus to ponder what “citizen” means?) And sovereignty is a basic principle of the international system. Since when has a country had the right to dictate a neighbor’s name? Philologus provides no parallels, because they don’t exist. Right now, the Republic of Macedonia is impoverished, with high unemployment and few economic resources. Readers who are old enough will recall that in the 1950s and 1960s, Greece was in similar straits. One economist at the time lamented that the only valuable mineral there was bauxite, and that remittances from abroad provided a massive part – one third, I think -- of the Greek budget. Things are different now, thanks in part to European Union membership. It is very strange to see a country that once was poor now bully its neighbor. Moreover, the bullying is counterproductive. Greece needs a stable Balkan area, unless it wants ethnic conflicts to increase on its borders. And it desperately needs to clean up the Vardar – Axios River, which is full of dangerous material. How eager will the Republic of Macedonia be to cooperate when pushed around in this manner? Fortunately, there are countervailing forces. Greece is the number one investor in its northern neighbor (over $1 billion) and also a significant trade partner. Thessaloniki is the Republic’s port of convenience. There is good reason to hope for a positive outcome, if cool heads prevail. Hotter heads will try to prevent a solution, as always. An Athenian friend criticized name-issue extremists in the 1990s, and found swastikas painted on his house. But there is no good reason to continue this dispute. Dan

It is obvious that the real issue is not the name of the Republic of Macedonia - we, the Macedonians used to live for quite a lot of time in states which had other names (Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia etc) and we never lost the national identity. Same here - if the name issue is really what bothers the Greeks, why do they make an issue of the national identity of the people living in Macedonia? The answer is - COVER UP of the MACEDONIAN minority in Greece

Dear Andreas With all my compassion towards your views, I regret to inform you that your words sound more like the old Greek propaganda against the Macedonian minority in Greece. Macedonians represents the majority of the Greek Macedonia population as of today and as of 1928, or as of 320BC. These people are being forced into declaring themselves as Greeks since Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. Macedonians in Greece were and are prosecuted for declaring themselves as Macedonians; this is present even today in the Greek part of Macedonia. Macedonians enjoy higher human rights in Bulgaria, and Serbia has given full independence to Macedonia. “Grkmani” as a word does not exist in the Republic of Macedonia, and never has existed. I have never heard that word my whole life and I have been living in Republic of Macedonia and in Greek controlled Macedonia. However, I acknowledge that there is a large number of Macedonians in Greece that are forced by the Greek government to declare themselves as Greeks. They even have to teach their children that they are Greeks because if a child goes to school talking that he is ethnic Macedonian and that he is not Greek that could be disastrous for him and his family. Greece is in the list of top ten countries in the world for Human Rights Abuses, only because of the Greek treatment of the minorities in Greece. Furthermore, I can not completely disagree that Macedonians dislike the idea of Macedonians calling themselves Greeks, this is considered as the highest level of treachery, but considering the bullying minorities have to suffer in Greece we all understand their point of view. After all, we all want to continue with our lives as normal. You were very correct to mention the exchange of population that happened after the civil war in Greece. Those people that inhabited the Greek part of Macedonia are Macedonians as much as the people who were there before them. The people who inhabited Salonika from other parts of Greece or from Bulgaria are people who lost their homes, or didn’t have any home, and by acquiring the homes of the Macedonians that were forced out they became home owners. NOW HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM IN THE NAME MACEDONIA, GREEKS IN MACEDONIA KNOW THAT THEY HAVE SOMETHING THAT DO NOT BELONG TO THEM AND ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO THREAT BY THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA THEY ARE WORRIED, NOT BECAUSE WE THREATEN YOU, (WE HAVE NO POWER TO THREATEN YOU), BUT BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF YOU LIVE IN A HOUSE THAT BELONGS TO SOMEBODY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORTHER. It is a very complex issue my dear Andreas. The people who were forced out of their homes in south Macedonia are almost all dead. Greece has committed a serious crime but that is in the past. It is not you who did it, it is not me who suffered, and in the Balkan history there are many crimes against humanity. Stopping Macedonian to integrate in NATO and EU is another crime that involves us, (me and you) simply because we are present in this comedy and we represent different views.

Dear Philologos Macedonians (not Greeks) have, according to several mtDNA and HLA genes studies, most likely inhabited the Balkans and surrounding regions for as long as 35 000 years. That makes us the oldest people in Europe together with the Basques. The Slavic race most likely did not suddenly appear from nowhere in the sixth century. The historic certainties that you rely on in your assumptions are nonexistent and therefore damaging for your reasoning. You are however far from alone in your mistaken belief. It's hard to even fathom the scope of misconceptions and faulty so-called historical facts that have been constructed for political purposes the last 100 years. I suggest you take some time and read Vic's comment. It far from covers all bases of the issue, but it's a beginning. However distant these facts may be to you I still urge you to dig deeper into the question. Think of the implications if what I say is true. And after you have thought think about why the Greeks are so frantically opposed to The Republic of Macedonia.

Greeks are not Slavophones,please go to Pakistan you will learn a lot obout Macedonian language. The Unzu people speak a lot of words we the Macedonians speak. Their language is Brushevski, does a Greek word exists ending withS SKI?Greece is in dreamland. Alexander the Great was not Greek, but Macedonian.Greeks never lived in Macedonia till 1913.Greek history starts from 1832 not before.

It is very interesting to see a neutral observer criticize the name issue of FYROM ( Former Yug Rep of Macedonia). I generally agree to all what PHILOLOGOS says. But to be frank : It was us Greeks that initially, in 1992, made mistakes on the subject. We demanded that the final name of FYROM must not contain either the name MACEDONIA or derivetives of it ( e.g. Macedonian ). That was too far. These Slavic people live in historic Macedonia for 1400 years. Hence they have the right to include Macedonia in their country's name : They actually called themselevs SLOVENI MAKEDONTSI (Slav Macedonians) in 1944-1949, during the Greek Civil War. [ They sided with the Greek Communists at that time ]. Today, Greece has changed its stance. The names NOVA MAKEDONIJA (New Macedonia) or GORA MAKEDONIJA (Upper Macedonia) were proposed and rejected by FYROM authorities. PHILOLOGOS's proposal is welcome by Greece, also. The problem is that USA encouregaged FYROM to think that Greece would ultimately yield to USA pressure. Hence the intransigence of FYROM. Now things have changed. I hope that common sense will prevail now that USA proved unable to manipulate the rest of NATO allies. ANDREAS SYGGROS GREEK from THESSALONIKI

Lafayette Square is in Washington; New York has a Lafayette Street. North and South Korea do not go by those names, just as East and West Germany never did.

Macedonians (not Greeks) have, according to several mtDNA and HLA genes studies, most likely inhabited the Balkans and surrounding regions for as long as 35 000 years. That makes us the oldest people in Europe together with the Basques. The Slavic race most likely did not suddenly appear from nowhere in the sixth century. The historic certainties that you rely on in your assumptions are nonexistent and therefore damaging for your reasoning. You are however far from alone in your mistaken belief. It's hard to even fathom the scope of misconceptions and faulty so-called historical facts that have been constructed for political purposes the last 100 years. I suggest you take some time and read Vic's comment. It far from covers all bases of the issue, but it's a beginning. However distant these facts may be to you I still urge you to dig deeper into the question. Think of the implications if what I say is true. And after you have thought think about why the Greeks are so frantically opposed to The Republic of Macedonia.

Macedonians (not Greeks) have, according to several mtDNA and HLA genes studies, most likely inhabited the Balkans and surrounding regions for as long as 35 000 years. That makes us the oldest people in Europe together with the Basques. The Slavic race most likely did not suddenly appear from nowhere in the sixth century. The historic certainties that you rely on in your assumptions are nonexistent and therefore damaging for your reasoning. You are however far from alone in your mistaken belief. It's hard to even fathom the scope of misconceptions and faulty so-called historical facts that have been constructed for political purposes the last 100 years. I suggest you take some time and read Vic's comment. It far from covers all bases of the issue, but it's a beginning. However distant these facts may be to you I still urge you to dig deeper into the question. Think of the implications if what I say is true. And after you have thought think about why the Greeks are so frantically opposed to notion of The Republic of Macedonia.

gogi is mistaken of a liar - there is no CREDIBLE genetics study to back up the claim gogi made. The following is a link below is to an anti-racist website designed to fight Neo-nazi and afro-centric use and abuse of pseudo-genetics. http://racialreality.110mb.com/greeks.html The website http://racialreality.110mb.com/ defends against the racist attacks against Greeks, Italians and Jews, etc. by racialists.

GOGI said : "That makes us the oldest people in Europe together with the Basques. The Slavic race most likely did not suddenly appear from nowhere in the sixth century." SIMPLE QUESTION : Why, then, "Macedonians" speak a South Slavic language, most closely related to Bulgarian ? [BRITANNICA on "MAKEDONSKI JAZIK" ] The simplest explanation is that during the Slavic migrations in the Balkans whoever people inhabited Macedonia mixed with the Slavs. The Slavs being the preponderant element, they imposed their language, to the point that not a single word of "macedonian" is of anicent origin : They are all Slavic. Not all people mixed, of course. A substantial part (21% according to OFFICILA FYROM HISTORIANS ) remained Greeks. No doubt there is a mixing of races everywhere in Europe, so these Greeks were no "pure" Greeks, but the Greek element was preponderant. By the way : DNA searches for "purity" of some people remind me of Hitler's time. There is no racial "purity". It existed only in the dirty mind of Adolf. ON THE OTHER HAND : The problem of who were ancient Macedonians is academic. I gave you an adress of competend Historians, so apply to them instead posting fragmental "evidence" here. And post what OXFORD will answer to you. The proble of the name arose due to the irredentist demands, either open or undercover, of FYROM people. In a post above a FYROM gentleman says shamelessly that "...We Greeks live in houses of people across the border", an allegation completely false. Do we need any more evidence of irredentism ? ANDREAS SYGGROS

philologos - your essay is spot on...and i applaud you in examining the name (historical and cultural) and irredentist (current security/fyrom slavic nationalism) issue(s) between greece and fyrom. i realize this is a jewish forum..yet, jewish historical text from the book of maccabees (religious canon to orthodox and catholic christians) - plays a role in giving credence to the greek position...while at the same time, makes a total farce of fyrom/slavic claims. the religious holiday of channukah is celebrated as the re-taking of the temple. from whom? the seleucid dynasty was a successor state of alexander the great's empire in the middle east. the seleucids tried to hellenize jews along with attempting to force the jews to worship zeus (greek pagan god). some 2,200 years later, when asked about the ancient events surrounding channukah..many jews i know, proudly claim; "we defeated the greeks and took back the temple". quite simply, the book of maccabees calls the macedonians, "greeks". shall the fyrom slavs or fyrom supporters claim the book of maccabees is science fiction? lies? unreliable? the fyrom slavs will only see their delusions not only conflict with established historical and cultural documentation, but now conflict with religious text of their own orthodox christian religion, along with conflicting with a 3rd party's (jewish) historical documentation. perhaps these slavs will tell the jews that the jews have channukah all wrong. my essay doesn't approach the current security issue. it only adds one more powerful link to the unbreakable chain of greek historical & cultural arguments and further damages the flimsy & delusional historical argument of the fyrom slavs and their supporters.

Those slavic speaking people who claim to monopolize Macedonian identity, use to eclectically invoke either a "sovereign- right-to-choose-the-name-we-want" and "we-are-the-victims" argument or a mixture of "historic" and often "genetic studies" that eventually prove the racial cause of the Greek meanness. In the meantime they have managed to completely miss the point made by "Philologos" (the one who loves logos, meaning reason) along with the fact that they have no natural ally other than Greece... Very soon they will be voting...

Was ancient Macedonia part of the “Greek-speaking world,” and was its royal family “Greek”? The fifth century BC historians Herodotus and Thucydides repeatedly describe the Macedonians as fierce people on the outskirts of what was called “Hellas” though what even _that_ word meant remains unclear. (See Jonathan Hall’s recent book, Hellenicity.) Herodotus gives the Macedonian royal family (not the population) a Greek origin, but, like much in Herodotus, this story is hard to prove. The royal family did bring in Athenian philosophers and dramatists -- but this shows nothing about ethnicity. Turning to the modern era, “Macedonia” far predates modern Yugoslavia. It appears, for instance, on maps from the 1840s. Discussing Kafka, Philologus seems oblivious to the Peace of Westphalia which established the principle of European sovereignty in 1648. Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state, and Kafka a citizen. He was of course immersed in German and Jewish culture, but “Czech” remains a wholly appropriate term to use for him. He would have fought in the Czech army not the German or Jewish ones, and voted in Czech elections. By Philologus’ logic, quite a few citizens of our own country could be called “un-American.” (Would it have been so hard for Philologus to ponder what “citizen” means?) And sovereignty is a basic principle of the international system. Since when has a country had the right to dictate a neighbor’s name? Philologus provides no parallels, because they don’t exist. Right now, the Republic of Macedonia is impoverished, with high unemployment and few economic resources. Readers who are old enough will recall that in the 1950s and 1960s, Greece was in similar straits. One economist at the time lamented that the only valuable mineral there was bauxite, and that the economy relied heavily on remittances from abroad. Things are different now, thanks in part to European Union membership. It is very strange to see a country that once was poor now bully its neighbor. Moreover, the bullying is counterproductive. Greece needs a stable Balkan area, unless it wants ethnic conflicts to increase on its borders. And it desperately needs to clean up the Vardar – Axios River, which is full of dangerous material. How eager will the Republic of Macedonia be to cooperate when pushed around in this manner? Fortunately, there are countervailing forces. Greece is the number one investor in its northern neighbor (over $1 billion) and also a significant trade partner. Thessaloniki is the Republic’s port of convenience. There is good reason to hope for a positive outcome, if cool heads prevail. Hotter heads will try to prevent a solution, as always. An Athenian friend criticized name-issue extremists in the 1990s, and found swastikas painted on his house. But there is no good reason to continue this dispute. Dan

Dear Dan, You post always the same story, and you say : Was ancient Macedonia part of the “Greek-speaking world,” and was its royal family “Greek”? The fifth century BC historians Herodotus and Thucydides repeatedly describe the Macedonians as fierce people on the outskirts of what was called “Hellas” though what even _that_ word meant remains unclear. (See Jonathan Hall’s recent book, Hellenicity.) Herodotus gives the Macedonian royal family (not the population) a Greek origin, but, like much in Herodotus, this story is hard to prove. The royal family did bring in Athenian philosophers and dramatists -- but this shows nothing about ethnicity. I say : Passages of ancient sources about the ethnicity of ancient Macs are cotradictory. In OXFORD they studied hundreds of works of ancient sources, inscriptions and other archeologiacl evidence and wrote the results in OXFORD CLASSICAL DICTIONARY. So, instead of repeatedly posting the same "evidence", please apply to OXFORD, if you are a competend Historian, and correct them. And please post their answer here. Otherwise, you just prove your paucity of arguements. ANDREAS SYGGROS PS : And, please, comment on the irredentist remarks of Peter !!!

If anyone interested to see what the real problem is should read this. http://www.gate.net/~mango/britrep.html

Dear Philologos , I am Greek and I want to congratulate you for your article. A very interesting book is : "The falcification of Macedonian History-Ancient Jewish sources and testimony on Macedonia" by Nicolaos K. Martis The FYROM popaganda is unbeliavable and has reached a stage that the inhabitants of this country( They are Slavs and reached the Balkan peninsula 600 years A.D.) claim to be that they are the ancestors of Alexander the Great even though they do not know what Alexander means in the Greek language. This book refers to Jewish sources among other regarding the history of ancient Macedonia.If you give me an address I would be happy to send you a copy of the book. For information I must point out that SNOF the organisation appointed by TITO in 1944 to detach the Northern part of Greece, called Macedonia,has taken in its ranks Bulgarians Slavophones who colaborated with Germans in deporting Jews from Greece. Sincerely George C

Sorry sir, but Franz Kafka was born Austrian and even when he wrote "das Urteil" and "die Verwandlung" the Austrian empire was stll alive and kicking - wouldn't you agree? Hearty greetings

Regarding your 10 April 2008 story by Philologos, titled “Whither Macedonia?” On language. Please edify yourself on correct facts before writing and posting an article for it is your ethical duty to present true and accurate facts to our readers. Macedonia was taken over and split apart in several pieces in 1913 under the Treaty of Bucharest. The takeover of Macedonia in 1913 "increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000." Source: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=gZ_Sbgm3ReIC&printsec=frontcover">http://books.google.com/books?id=gZ_Sbgm3ReIC&printsec=frontcover</a> There is nothing ancient about 1913! See also a 1925 Time Magazine article on Macedonia which was published long before “Yugoslavia came into existence.” Source: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0">http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0</a>,9171,719711,00.html Finally, please see ACTUAL suffering of Greek citizens who are living in MODERN Greece, but are PRESENTLY discriminated against by the Greek government because of their minority status; specifically, because of their Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonian religion, Macedonian language, and their unique cultural identity that is distinct from other Greek citizens who do not hold themselves out as “Macedonians.” Source: <a href="www.florina.org">www.florina.org</a> The NATO veto was not about the name, but about ethnic cleansing of people of Macedonian national origin by Greece. Please verify sources and citations when writing your articles in the future. We the readers deserve better. Thank you for your time and assistance. Marco C

Marco C. said : "Macedonia was taken over and split apart in several pieces in 1913 under the Treaty of Bucharest." As you write is, the average reader of say, Malaysia, has the impression that a state named "Macedonia" pre-existed 1913, and that THIS state was cut in three parts by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. This is absolutely inaccurate. Macedonia was the name of a region in the Ottoman Empire. There was not even an administrative area under this name. This region was a mosaic of ethnicities, Bulgars, Turks and Greeks mainly, and a few Vlachs and Arvanites, besides a sizable (~ 60.000) Jewish community in Thessaloniki. The notion of a "macedonian" ethnicity was just coming into being in 1900, so some Slavic speakers identified themselves as "macedonians" instead of Bulgarians. Due to this multiethnic structure, the French coined the experession "La Salade Macedoine" = "The Macedonian Salade" when they wanted to say "Mixed Salad". They use the expression even today ! It was quite natural that Greece and Bulgaria had aspirations in this region, since they both had sizable populations there. The problem was that their aspirations were overlapping. After the second Balkan war, each state got a part of the area. Greece was able, after the Treaties if Neuilly and Lausanne, 1920 and 1923 respectively, to exchange the Turks and Bulgarians living in Greek Macedonia (the part that she got after Bucaherst 1913), with Greeks from Asia Minor and Bulgaria. So Greek Macedonia changed radically in ethnical structure : It became 92% Greek, the rest being the Slavic speakers and the Jewish community in Thessaloniki. The latter was destroyed by the Nazis in WW-II. The Slavic speakers, gradually aquiring a "macedonian" national feeling, sided with the Communists in 1944 and the ensuing Greek Civil War 1946-49 and tried to carve out Greek Macedonia from the Greek State in order to form a communist "United Macedonia", together with parts of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.(*) Most of them fled to Yugoslavia after the Communists were defeated in 1949. ***************************************** (*) Had this notorious scheme been implemented, a country with Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian and "Macedonian" ethnicities would emerge. This new "Salade Macedoine" would have been a tinderbox in the Balkans, exactly as Bosnia-Herzegovina, or FYROM in 2001 !!! ANDREAS SYGGROS

I'd like to say that Macedonians are different nation from the greeks. Macedoians concorde greece tribe,after that they accept the greek language because greeks say that macedonians are barbarian.Macedonia was separate with Bucarest aggrement in 1913 between greece, bulgaria and serbia.Nowdays Greece say that we are not macedonians, that we dont have its own culture and language, THAT IS NOT TRUE, macedonians have rich cultural background which we can see from ancient cities, churches and monastirys.About the macedonian literature language, its unique and its different from serbian, bulgarian and greek language. Everyone who visit macedonia can feel that macedonian language is unique.Macedonian ortodox church has the same problem like the country's name because the greek church dont want to recognise as unique.All this problems are problems on greece not on macedonia because we don't take other history, we have our own one macedonian history.Greek's veto for Republic of Macedonia's entry in NATO is POOR fact, show that greece is not democratic country.Even the fact that Greece is a member of EU and NATO, Greece don't respect minority rights on macedonian minority, turkish minority......For example macedonia change its Constitution, we change our state flag and we say that we DON'T HAVE TERITORIAL PRETENSION to any country.Around 123 countries in the world recognise REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA under our constitutional name.Macedonians are unique nation and no one can change that.LIVE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, LIVE MACEDONIANS

King David was PALESTINIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!lol

Greece has forgoten that MACEDONIA was divided before the 1st world war there was a civil war before that against the Turkish Empire which then Macedonia was divided between serbia and greece on a agreement by treaty for the amount of years that Greece would have the greater part of Macedonia also Serbia. Only one King of Greece he who beat Troy and all the other Hellenic countries to unite then and then call it GREECE".Alexander coquererd Greece as a Macedonian not a Greek. Read the books that were written from the Historians from before all the text that has been written to suit the GREEKS from when MACEDONIA had rid the Turkish from 540 years of ocupation from the BALKANS just before the FIRST WORLD WAR.

Micheal, I applaud you for having the knowledge of the real and true history of Macedonia and sharing them with everyone. It is people like yourself that will help a deserving nation like REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA prosper no matter how much greece resist. I personally thank you for your posting.

dear friend,philologos,I am macedonian from Republic of Macedonia,I eccept the fact,that,there are macedonians who live in greek macedonia region,and I respect their fellings,but the diffrence bitween Republic of Macedonia and the Greek Macedonia is that Macedonians from R.o.M. don't say we are the only macedonians,and you say that, you dinaid our right to call oursalves macedonians.If you wanna be objective you have to search objective hostorical sources,etnic macedonias there was in 1900 year,in 1850 year....not that we call ourselves from 1945.My grand mother,for example,doesn't exept changinf of the name of R.o.M,why? she says:I am macedonian,my father,was macedonian, his father was macedonian,we all knew that,that is identity,not a chois. You can't tell anyone how to be called,can somebody tell to greek that no you aren't a greek,you arrem't hellen you are turk,that history says that todays greeks came from turkey?no immposible right? if we agreed to separate the name we to be north macedonia,and you to be south macedonia,that won't be irredentistict by your greek logic? we don't have claims,that is greek goverment propaganda for your people,for axample we the macedonians from R.oM. never deared to tell what you are,and you do that!we don't have anything against you,we give you points on eurovision when you have a good song,I have seen seen greek peoople walking in my home town with t-shirrt of ellas fudbal team and it's ok!but emagine what would happen if i go to greece and walk with our national dress of macedonia?despite of tou say we have claims for macedonia with thease name and with north and south it isn't the same,by that logic?we don't deniad that you are macedonias we don't have exlusive right of the name macedonian you wnat that!and you know what is the diffrence between old macedonia and todays Republic of Macedonia? the old one never had been Republic wright?so lets leave as a people this name issues is only to our govermants to hide ther economical mistakes and weaknesses in fron of theare people and to ocupate them with the name! we had and embargo 3 years from greece do you know what damage has it done to our ecconomy? rulled lives of many families and wo arren;t angry for that we have not say anything,ok that is your politics.....you are changing our name,you don;t recognize us,and we are not angry,but you are???? there was a couple of incidents when macedonian truck drivers was malested in greece that is not human from a neiber,who is in eu right?

For 50 years Greece had to put up with the ridiculous propaganda and provocation of the former Socialist Republic of Macedonia within Yugoslavia. Now Greece is getting its revenge. It is dictating to FYROM its terms for recognition of that country. A veto in Bucharest and, if necessary, a veto in the EU. Macedonia is a Greek name. Slav-Macedonians are a slavic people, and therefore must compromise on the name, to Greece's satisfaction.

DEAR COSTA GREECE THE NAME A MYTH MACEDONIA FOR REAL YOU TALK FROM A YOUNG GENERATION OF GREEKS WHO DONT UNDERSTAND MUCH OF HISTORY REGARDING MACEDONIA AND THE BORDERS WHICH DIVIDE TWO COUNTRIES BOTH WITH A NAME AND IDENTITY TWO PEOPLE ONE SLAVIC THE OTHER HELLENIC BEFORE BOTH FOR 500 YEARS TURKISH RULE WAS THE LIFE FOR THE BALKANS, ONE GHANGE A HUNDRED YEARS ON FROM A WAR IN THE BALKANS BEFORE WW1 LIFE IS DIFFERENT, MANY PEOPLE TO THIS DAY WILL NEVER KNOW OUR PROUD HISTORY AS MACEDONIA, TIMES GHANGE AND THE PEOPLE WHO'S FAMILIES CONTROLED BY A DIVISION OF LAND AND GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THIS IS THE SAD REALLITY OF SEPARATION. MAYBE IT TIME TO PUT THINGS BACK THE WAY THEY WERE MACEDONIA FOR MACEDONIANS AND GREECE FOR GREEKS TWO COUNTRIES ONE BORDER NOT THREE THIS IS THE YEAR 2008 NOT 3 MILLION BC WE ARE STILL HUMAN FROM LAST I REMEMBER NOT DINOSAURS WE HAVE BRAINS WE CAN WORK WITH ONE ANOTHER AND NOT EAT EACH OTHER ITS TIME FOR A FUTURE FOR ALL I AM SURE EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS HAD HISTORY OF SOME SORT WE ARE PROUD TO BE ALL ONE [HUMANITY] THATS THE WORD EVERY PERSON HAS AN OPINION I RESPECT THAT SO SHOULD YOU AND ALL WHO READ THIS BIT OF TEXT TIME FOR EXISTENCE NOT EXTINCTION GIVE US THE RIGHT TO CALL OUR SELVES MACEDONIANS THAT ALL WE ASK OF THE GREEK GOVERNMENT.

Dear Michael, I did not mean to offend the Macedonian people with my comments. But in former Yugoslavia there was alot of pressure exerted on Greece by Macedonian nationalists for decades. I am proud of my Greek background, and am amazed that the name issue is still stopping FYROM from taking its place among the family of nations. Maybe its revenge, I don't know. I call the slavs of FYROM, Macedonian. Sometimes, slav-Macedonian. I have no problem calling your language and culture, Macedonian. But will your country be called Macedonia? Prior to 1990, I used to enjoy listening to Macedonian music on the radio. I always assumed that by "Macedonian", one mean't slav-Macedonian. Ancient Macedonia belongs to the Greek people. Why can't you call your country "Slav-Macedonia"? Your language and people will still be referred to as "Macedonian". Within Greece, the term "slav-Macedonian" will be used. I've heard that the Albanian minority doesn't agree with this. But is this country apart of their heritage or yours? Who cares what the Albanians say. I feel Slav-Macedonia is an accurate description of FYROM.

Dear Costa i still dont understand why the Greeks lay claim to Macedonian origin why you also dont. 500 years i quote Turky was in your land called Greece,2000 years ago it was Persia same origin but Greece the name in ancient times as you say never was Hellenic origin yes for your people but as SPARTA , ATHENA , THESIA this is your history not anything to do with Macedonia ask your grandparents and the stories that they have been told i dont think you will ever understand even where you coming from brush up on your history lessons not what you know read text on history from the 1800's written by English scholars not Greek.

Dear Costa read the BIBLE and read carefully what country has been mentioned that is MACEDONIA and for what reasons the bible talks about MACEDONIA. F.Y.R.O.M is what every nation that still calls MACEDONIA look at the list of 16 countries that wont recognise the title of MACEDONIA. Look up the meaning of YUGOSLAVIA and why MARSHALL TITO united these countries to give that title. And before him every nation in the world knew MACEDONIA as MACEDONIA but not part of GREECE. One name one land, ask HITLER who ALEKSANDER THE GREAT was and why HITLER was keen to even try to rule by ALEKSANDERS sword thats why history can never repeat, this is the same thing that ALEKSANDER did to all Hellenic origin so how can you call yourself MACEDONIAN when he masacerd all and his father before him what you call GREEK please explain the senario.

I cannot change ancient history. No matter what I say or do, I cannot change the past. If the ancient Macedonians were Greek, and if, with time Macedonia was populated with slavic people in the 7th A.D., that doesn't change my claim, as a Greek, to Macedonian heritage. I understand that Ilinden also makes you a Macedonian, but ancient history has nothing to do with you. Are you a slavic people or not? Your language, culture and history is slavic. Why can't I call you slav-Macedonian? I don't read Greek historians. I read American or European historians, because I know that the Greeks can get carried away with their heroic past. Which historians do you read? I have never read anywhere that you are not a slavic people! Except by historians from your country. Why is that? Is the world wrong? If you are slavs then what has ancient Macedonian history to do with you? I may be young, but in my opinion, there are many Macedonians who are angry with the way Greece has treated them in the past. Does the Bible say anything about holding on to anger? Will you hate Greece forever? And quote the Bible? Greeks lost lands in Turkey in the 1920's. By the millions. Do I hold a grudge against the Turkish people forever? Or do I move on? I will always enjoy Macedonian music. I've even learn't a few words here and there. I can tell from your music that you are a decent and vibrant people. The Greeks have said how they feel about this issue. And the Macedonian people have expressed their feelings, too. Whatever happens, as long as it is done without bloodshed, will be right and just. If FYROM ends up being called Macedonia, I'll accept it. But if it is called something else will you accept it?

cons=costa

DEAR COSTA WHY IS IT THAT WHEN THE PART OF MACEDONIA WAS TAKEN BY YOUR PEOPLE AND MADE ANOTHER BORDER THOSE PEOPLE WERE THEN DIVIDED FROM THERE FAMILIES AND I KNOW OF THIS ON A PERSONAL SIDE OF THINGS AND THE TORMENT THAT THE GREEK GOVERNMENT GAVE THESE NEW BAPTISED PEOPLE A NEW WAY TO LIVE AND FORGET THERE PAST BUT THEY ARE STILL OF SLAVIC ORIGIN ALL THE WAY TO SOLUN WHICH WHICH WAS RENAMED TO THESOLONIKI SOUNDS THE SAME DOESNT IT, JUST REMEMBER WHAT THOSE PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN UP FOR THE PAST HUNDRED YEARS FROM THE DIVISION OF MACEDONIA FROM THE BALKEN WAR. IN YOUR BELIEF AND THE WAY YOU TALK DOESNT SOUND LIKE ANY INTEREST TO THAT SITUATION. YOU CHANGE WHO YOU ARE TO LEARN BY FORCE AND FORGET THE PAST AND THEN TELL ME WHO IS WRONG AND WHO IS RIGHT FROM BEING A MACEDONIAN TO A GREEK YOU BE STRIPED OF ALL YOUR VALUES OF LIFE AND MEANING AND TELL ME HOW YOU WOULD FEEL. I HAVE MANY GREEK FRIENDS AND ALSO FROM THE DIVIDED PART THEY ARE FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO ME SO DONT TELL ME WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE LEARNT FROM SELF NON EDUCATED BELIEF YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE DONT WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WHAT EVER A MACEDONIAN SPEAKS ABOUT HIS OR HER GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE CALLED MACEDONIAN PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE THIS IS THE WAY FOR ALL WITH ANY PAST HISTORY THAT ANOTHER COUNTRY HAS NO RIGHT TO GHANGE YOU ARE OF HELLENIC PAST WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF SLAVIC PAST AND BOTH COEXISTED IN THE SAME PERIOD THIS IS YOUR'S AND MY REALITY I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE FEELINGS FOR OUR CULTURE BOTH GREEK AND MACEDONIAN HAVE A VERY SIMILAR WAY OF DOING THINGS THIS IS BECAUSE OF OUR PAST THAT LINKS THE BOTH COUNTRIES THAT IS BECAUSE THATS WHY ALEKSANDER HAD A MACEDONIAN FATHER MARRIED TO MOTHER OF A HELLENIC ORIGIN AS YOU CALL GREEK THIS IS WHY A BARBARICK PEOPLE AS WAS ALEKSANDER WAS EDUCATED IN THE GREEK WAY OUR HELLENIC CULTURE THIS IS WHAT MADE THE MAN KING OF ANCIENT MACEDONIA NEVER HAVE I HEARD THE WOMAN AS HIS MOTHER TO BE THE BLOODLINE A FATHER IS THE GENETIC POOL YOU ARE MADE TO BEIEVE IN YOUR EDUCATION THAT HIS MOTHER OF HER BACKGROUND MAKES GREECE LAY CLAIM TO MACEDONIA, JUST REMEMBER A BARBARICK PEOPLE SPOKE A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE FROM THOSE OF HELLENIC ORIGIN THEREFORE HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHO IS WHO WHETHER SLAVIC OR HELLENIC YOU DONT TIME TRAVEL BY CHANCE .

I'm sorry for how previous Greeks have treated the Macedonian people. I call your people and their language, Macedonian. You're right when you say that I have'nt been through what you have. But sometimes it takes a third party to keep things in perspective, otherwise, if you're angry, you will get carried away. I have never seen war or ethnic cleansing and I don't want to. I would like all Balkan nations to adopt multiculturism and let people say what they want. Unfortunately that will still take some time. But it is the future. I also think that the Greek government should show some sensitivity and accept that the slav-Macedonian people and their culture is unique, and not Bulgarian. They should also allow anyone who was barred from entering Greece after the civil war to freely enter. It's just a matter of time, anyway. I don't think it's a good idea for either side to taunt each other.

What does it mean to be "Macedonian"?

SAME AS YOU CALLING YOURSELF GREEK THAT WHAT IT MEANS BEING RECOGNIZED. NOT EVERYONE CALLING SOMETHING THAT YOUR NOT INSTEAD OF BEING CALLED A GREEK WHICH WE ARE NOT.

There is no proof that the ancient Macedonians were the same as the Greeks. Also, there is no proof that the Macedonian inhabiting today's FYROM teritory are the same as the ancient Macedonians, although they occupy parts of it teritory. The fact is clear. We have not enough proofs to claim something we cannot. But don't fool yourselves with history written from each of these countries. Look at the facts and make 'doubtful' conclusions. People had mixed a lot between eachother. Ancient, newcomers, small triebs, big numerous populations. Bulgarians may as well shere some ancient elements of the ancient Macedonians and other tribes too, Greeks today share some slavic elements or have contributed their genes to the slavic populations, the residents of FYROM even though they speak Slavic language have some ancient people's blood in them. The question is not how much which individual have inherited genes from. The question is neither weather that person has the right to claim his rights of being descendets (even partly) of some ancient people from the past. The question is not about ''pure'' identity, but about ''pure'' believe in some identity. Look at the Bulgarians today. Only by looking at them one can say they resenble somewhat to the Turks, maybe to the Russians too, maybe we see the features of both when we deeply look in the population. They speak Slavic language so they are Slavs - we naivly conclude. But it is true that the language can hide much of the ''pure'' identity, but give a lot to the ''pure'' believe of an identity. The Bulgarians say ''We are Bulgarians''. We all know what the history says about the Bulgarians, they seeme not to have been Slavs. And then the Bulgarians today may also say ''We are Slavs''. Ok, be that! So they say ''We are Bulgarians and we are Slavs''. They recognize two confrontational elements in this and instead of accepting what they say for true, they look to purify one of it on the account of the other so they say ''We are Bulgarians, not Slavs''. The name is obviously something we all tend to keep more likely as our identity, although it may no longer stand for what it originaly standed for, and that in the world of todays ''great'' nations seems important - to be what the name standed for. Macedonians have the right to claim the same. Noone can push a whole nation to see attac on its identity. They all see it as an attac. The history shows that they have claled themselfs Macedonians for longer than since the begining of Ypougoslavia. And here I am not talking about the politicions of those times or the books of those times, but about the people in their homes. The identity is not a purity. Nowhere. Take a person of Italian father and Danish mother. What is he. what will his children be, what will he say to them to believe they are. It is about the ''pure'' believ where you place yourself to be, because you wanna be somewhere. Greece must understand that Macedonians believe they are Macedonians and FYROM must understand that the ancient may not be the same as the present but very likely part of it. It is about the believe that is inherited in the people by generations. At the end the both countries must understand that what is the most importnat is the truth. If we want to find more who the ancient Macedonians were we need to exclude both Greeks today and Macedonians from FYROM today. After we can include them in the research but not as Greeks or Macedonians but as individuals, as well as the individuals from the neighbouring country. Who cares about the truth cares about the facts. If someone believes he is something, let him be. He has the right to be that. If someone says ''I am a frog'' let him be a frog. Because if you don't he won't stop mayking the squeeze toy noise. But if you do, he might as well want to be called human again. The identity is a believe of inheretance by generations. Whatever the genetics proofs may be of irrelevant meaning. Be more critical to your own histories and less sentimentsal. The reason must prevail.

Your language and people are called Macedonian everywhere. That will never change, regardless of what happens between Greece and Macedonia over the name of the country. It would be ideal if people could be tolerant and accept their neighbours and allow them the right to call themselves anything they want. But the Greek people will not accept a country called Macedonia per se. Personally, I don't like telling people who they are and are not. If FYROM ends up being called Macedonia, I'll still sleep calmly at night.

How a people see themselves is not always accurate. The Macedonians are now claiming they are not slavs. That's what they "believe". What am I supposed to do with a claim like that? Every scholar I've ever read says they are slavs. In my opinion, language, culture and religion determine a people's "ethnicity". Not their blood lines. The Greek people might have slavic, Albanian, Turkish blood lines but they are Greek because they speak Greek, are by far Greek Orthodox and exhibit Greek culture. They have every right to claim the heritage of ancient and Byzantine Greece, regardless of blood lines. If no-one can tell who is who, in the Balkans, via blood lines, then DNA tests are irrelevent. If the Macedonians speak a slavic language related to Serbian and closely related to Bulgarian, and exhibit slavic culture, then they are slavs unrelated to the ancient Macedonians. Similarly, the Turks were originally a central asian people, but today they are a great mixture of peoples who speak Turkish and have Turkish culture and are muslim. Therefore they are nothing else but Turks. I'm sure many of them have Greek Byzantine blood lines, but does that mean they are somehow Greek? No. The Jewish people are a great example of how religion can determine a people. There are black falasha Jews who are negroes. There are Chinese Jews. Hebrew as a language nearly disappeared, but Judaism did not. Did blood keep the Jewish people together or their religion? The Greeks, too often credit the Greek Orthodox church with preserving Hellenism. The Byzantines, again did not worry about blood. Religion and language kept the empire going. In any case, what is ancient Macedonian blood anyway? They were a mixed people who spoke their language, followed their religion and expressed their Macedonian culture. It's only recently that people have emphasised DNA tests as somehow determining who you are. But they don't. In fact blood theories are racist.

MACEDONIA IS GREEK AND ONE!

The "FYROM" FYROM is a product of geo-political calculations of the past, where elements that could -and will if no name in common suitable for all inhabitants found- to destabilize the area. Neighboring countries - with the exception of Greece- have already underwritten future claims. FYROM is purely artificial! Until 1944, this state was known as Bardaska. 1. Edward Stettinius, Secretary of State of the United States of America in April 1944 send the folowing memo to the communist dictator of Yugoslavia Marshal Titto. April 24, 1944 The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national consciousness to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is totally inhabited by Greeks, (Macedonians geographically) and the Greek people are unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Edward Stettinius, Secretary of State (USA) 2. FYROM's Leadership regarding the identity of Fyromians: 2. January 22, 1999: FYROM’s Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, in her speech on the present situation in the Balkans: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and we speak a Slav language. Greece is FYROM's second largest trading partner, and its number one investor". 3. February 24, 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM's Ambassador to Canada: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some contusion about the identity of the people of this country”. 4. TO THIS DAY: Greece vetoes international acceptance of FYROM with the term Macedonia, Serbia denies the autonomy of its church, and Bulgaria (while accepting FYROM as a state) denies the existence of a Macedonian language and a Macedonian nation). 5. The Council of Ministers of the European Union in Brussels stipulated exactly that: "if the Republic of Skopje" wishes to be recognized it will have: «To commit itself, prior to recognition, to adopt constitution and political guarantees ensuring that: a) It has no territorial claims towards a neighboring community state. b) It will conduct no hostile propaganda activities versus a neighboring community state including the use of a denomination which implies territorial claims».

WHY TO THIS DAY EVERYBODY HAS THE MENTALITY OF KNOWING ALL ABOUT HISTORY UNTIL YOU HAVE SEEN IT IN YOUR FACE, WELL I HAVE SEEN SITES THROUGHOUT MACEDONIA THAT HAVE BEEN DUG UP, THERE IS NOTHING TO THIS DAY TO SHOW A GREEK DWELLING EXISTED IN MACEDONIA THERE IS ONLY EVIDENCE TO SHOW ROME RULED AD AND THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE UNDER THE ROMAN ARMIES THAT WERE OF MACEDONIAN ORIGIN NOT GREEK AND THAT IS WAY AFTER ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND KING PHILLIP HIS FATHER THAT IS ALL AFTER CHRIST SO THAT IS NOT EVEN GREEK EXISTANCE IN THAT REGION THERE IS ALSO EVIDENCE OF BC RELATED TO MACEDONIANS THERE AND THAT IS ALL OVER MACEDONIA THERE IS AN ANCIENT MACEDONIA AND A BIG HISTORY TO ALL THE MACEDONIAN'S ALL OVER THE WORLD SEE THE HISTORY PAY AN AIR FAIR AND SEE IT AND LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE AND WORK TO DIG UP ANCIENT RUINS. AS FOR GREECE IN THE PAST ONE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE TURKISH THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN FORGIVEN FOR THERE ACT OF NAZISM FOR THE AEGEAN MACEDONIAN'S TO THIS DAY WHY THOSE MACEDONIAN'S HAD TO CHANGE THERE IDENTITY TO GREEK AND STOP BELEIVING IN THER PAST AND TO BE GIVEN BY NO CHOICE A GREEK LIFE NOT TO BE MACEDONIAN TILL NOW A FEW MONTHS AGO THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE RIGHT ONCE MORE TO BE PROUD MACEDONIAN'S THIS IS WHY NOW THE GREAT PEOPLE WILL BE AGAIN ONE THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE THE GREEKS HAVE FORGOTEN THE BUCHAREST TREATY AND HOW GREECE NOW THINKS THAT THEY NOW HAVE A RIGHT TO THE NAME AND ALSO WHY THE BULGARIANS THINK THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO THE LANGUAGE AND WHY THE ALBANIANS ALSO THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO FLY THE ALBANIAN FLAG IN MACEDONIA WOULD ANY NORMAL COUNTRY DO THAT DO THAT IN AUSTALIA SEE WHERE YOU WILL END UP WITH OUR GOVERNMENT AND WHY THE SERBS THINK THAT SLAVIC ORIGIN STARTED FROM THE NORTH HENCE WHY GREECE WANTS THAT NAME FOR MACEDONIA TO HAVE NORTH AT THE BEGINING OF IT, SLAVIC STARTED FROM THE VERY HEART OF BALKANS AN THAT IS MACEDONIA THAT SPREAD FROM THERE TO ALL SLAVIC SPEAKING COUNTRIES THESE COUNTRIES THAT GOT THE LAND FROM THE SIGNING OF THE BUCHAREST TREATY ALL HAVE A LOT TO LOSE AND THER TIME HAS EXPIRED VERY SOON ACCORDING TO THE TREATY THATS ONE HELL OF A CONSPIRACY FOR FOUR NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES TO ALL HAVE SOMETHING AGAINST MACEDONIA IF NATO AND THE EU WAKE UP AND REALISE THE WHOLE DEAL BETWEEN ALL THESE COUTRIES AS FOR MR ANDREAS SYGGROS WAKE UP AND STEP FOOT IN A LAND WHICH HAS GOT IT UP THE BACK SIDE FOR THE LAST MILLENIUM AND ITS PEOPLE YOU CANNOT JUSTIFY YOUR WRITING AGAINST AN AS FOR ALL THE OTHERS AND INCLUDING THE FINAL COMMENT MADE BUY THE MAN OF JEWISH BACKGROUND AND HIS INTEREST IN THIS WHOLE SAGA OF A BIEST WRITING AGAINST A PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD THE SAME REASON AS ISRAIL AND PALASTINE HAVE THERE DISPUTE THE ONLY DIFFERANCE IS EVERYBODY AND EVERY COUNTRY AGAINST THE RECOGNITION FOR ONE NAME THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MACEDONIA AND HAS ALWAYS HAD THE SAME PEOPLE LIVING THERE FROM THE DAYS OF A GREAT MACEDONIA EMPIRE AND I QUOTE IT WAS AS MACEDONIA NOT THE GREEK EMPIRE AND THAT NAME ALSO WAS NOT IN EXISTENCE IN THAT PERIOD SPARTA WAS THE ONLY HELLENIC NATION AND ONLY ONE MACEDONIA DID NOT RULE THATS GREEK HISTORY TODAY 2008 WE RULED ALL HELLENIC STATES IN SO CALLED ANCIENT TIMES AND THE GREEK MYTHOLGY TO A HISTORY THAT THEY ALSO DONT KNOW PAGEN GODS MADE GREECE TO THIS DAY, AND THE MINATOR, MEDUSA MADE UP HISTORY THE REAL DEAL IS ALEXANDER RULED ALL HELLENIC STATES AND KILLED THERE PEOPLE HOW DO PEOPLE CHANGE THAT THEN CALL THEMSELVES GREEK I DONT KNOW HOW THE GREEK PEOPLE OF TODAY 2008 COUNTRIES CONQUER COUNTRIES AND THERE INHABITANTS LOOK AT THE TWO WORLD WARS AND EVERY WAR IN HISTORY KOREA AS AN EXAMPLE ASK THE PEOPLE OF NORTH AND SOUTH AND THE DIVIDED FAMILIES AND LOSS OF LIFE THIS IS WHAT THE GREEK GOVERNMENT BELIEVE IN THESE POLICIES SO ALL THAT READ THIS BELIEVE WHAT NONSENCE YOU ALL WRITE EVEN FROM A JEWISH WRITER THAT SHOULD FOLLOW HIS HISTORY MACEDONIA IS A LOT OLDER THAN ISRAEL AND THE ACTUAL FACT IS MACEDONIANS RULED ALL THE MIDDLE EAST AND EGYPT. CLEOPATRA IS ALSO IN MACEDONIA'S HISTORY THAT CAUSE SHE WAS A MACEDONIAN AND FROM ALEXANDERS FAMILY SO WHERE DOES HISTORY END UNTIL ALL WAR ENDS AND HATRED FOR ONE AN OTHER WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS ITS TIME ALL CONFLICT ENDS IN VERBAL AND IN WRITING EVERY COUNTRY HAS A NAME AND MACEDONIA HAS HAD ALWAYS THERES ALL NATIONS SHOULD RESPECT THAT AND SO SHOULD A VERY SMALL NATION AS GREECE AND ITS FACIST WAY OF THINKING THAT ALL ETHNIC MINORITIES IN GREECE MUST CARRY A GREEK SURNAME AND BE CHRISTENED A GREEK EVEN IF YOU ARE CHINESE LIVING IN GREECE ITS TIME ALL YOU THAT READ THIS WAKE UP OUT OF YOUR TRANCE AND STOP THE BULLSHIT. COSTA I HOPE YOU'VE WOKEN UP I HAVE BEEN AND SEEN AND UNDERSTAND PAST AND PRESENT HISTORY WITH MY OWN EYES DONT BELEIVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ASKED YOUR GREEK GOVERNMENT STOPPED A MACEDONIAN DANCING GROUP FROM CROOSSING INTO GREECE TO PEFORM FROM AUSTRALIA GROUP'S NAME IS ILLINDEN WHY WHEN THEY WHERE FORMALLY INVITED, THEY WHERE NOT PROMISED THERE SAFETY BY THE GREEK POLICE PLEASE EXPLAIN AND WHY THERE WAS GREEK PEOPLE WITH SIGNS OF DEATH THREATS AGAINST YOUNG CHILDREN WITH AN EDUCATION AN KNOWLEDGE BEHIND THEM THATS YOUR GREEK GOVERNMENT MATE I KNOW BEACAUSE I WAS THERE AND WAS TELIVISED IN EUROPE.

I was recently in Macedonia. Half the people identify as Albanians if you ask them in private.

TO DAVID WHAT DO YOU MEAN ALBANIANS ARE THERE DUE TO THE WAR THAT WAS IN KOSOVO 250,000 THAT CROSSED OVER ILLEGALY IN 2001 INTO MACEDONIA, WHAT ARE YOU WHAT COUNTRY DO YOU BELONG YOU DONT PROMOTE THE ALBANIANS A RIGHT THEY MUST ASIMILATE TO LIVING AS MACEDONIANS FLYING THE MACEDONIAN FLAG IF THEY WANT TO FLY THE ALBANIAN FLAG GO BACK TO ALBANIA WERE THEY BELONG, FOLLOW YOUR WAYS IN AUSTRALIA AND BE PREPARED TO BE DEPORTED BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY TO PREACH THERE.

DEAR DAVID I AM MACEDONIAN AND PROUD OF IT BUT I ALSO RECOGNISE THAT IM AUSTRAIAN AND I HAVE ALSO BEEN BACK TO MACEDONIA FROM BEING THERE FOR THREE MONTHS AND HAVE SEEN EVERTHING RELATED TO OUR HISTORY THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE FROM SECOND CENTURY AND NEW EVIDENCE FROM BC STIPULATING MACEDONIA WAS THEN AND NONE RELATED TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY (IE, GREECE,BULGARIA,ALBANIA,SERBIA ROMANS YES, TURKS YES BUT NOTHING ELSE THAT IS IN DEPTH LOOKING INTO OUR HISTORY IN PERSON NO ONE CAN TELL ME OTHERWISE.

Has anyone thought of “the Republic of Vardarska”? It comes from the big Vardar river that crosses that fragile ex-yugo republic and was used in the early 20th century, since it has always been a region with huge mix of poeples and religions. It now happens to be governed by a slim majority of the bulgarophones which actively pursue to survive. They know that their years in power as an opressive regime and coutry are counted. In a way it is mini-yugoslavia ready to explode and get a absorbed by neighbouring countries (Albanians, Hellenites, Bulgars and even Serbs). For the time being they need a geographic name, not the greek of course, since nearly half of their population is either Albanian or to a lesser extent Serbian. The rest (around 55%) are just bulgarian speaking slavs, in major national identity crisis. Moreover the area of that country accounts to less than 40% of historic Macedonia, most it (over 55%), including the ancient capital is located in the hellenitic city of Pella. And a bit off-topic, I would not invest in such a failed ex-yugo republic. Albania or Northen Greece seems much safer within 2010-2012, with coasts, ports, tourism and big energy projects underway.