Forward.com

The arguments that these rabbis make against the March of Living are preposterous at best, and reflect significant misunderstanding of the program.

I participated in the March in 1992, and there was no mistaking the inherent message of the program: "The Holocaust is the reason for the State of Israel." We achieved statehood in part because the Holocaust happened, and we must never lost sight of the fact that the existence of the State of Israel is the only "guarantee" against a holocaust happening again. That message, crafted by the Israeli government into the structure of the program is as relevant today as ever, and perhaps even moreso, because the Holocaust and those who witnessed it directly are receding into history.

Furthermore, anyone who knows anything about education will tell you that learning is far more effective when it is reinforced with an emotional experience. I learned about the Holocaust in school for ten years before I went on the March, and only when I stood on those train tracks in Birkenau seeing nothing but baracks to the horizon on each side did I grasp the magnitude of what transpired in those years.

Financial issues and politics aside, the March of the Living is an extremely valuable program, and its educational value is unquestionable.

For what it is worth, many Gdolei Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshiva and Admorim in both the Charedi and Modern Orthodox camps disagree with R Aviner's perspective and lead such tours as a means of understanding the environment where the Gdolei Rishonim, Acharonim and Marbitzei Chasidus and Musar lived, as opposed to their works merely being reference works on a library shelf. One can understand a reluctance to subsidize the economies of a continent that has a long legacy of anti Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust but one wonders whether R Aviner and R Melamed oppose visiting Kivrei Tzadikim in Eretz Yisrael.

I think an interesting comparison might be drawn between this article and the one on the sexual abuse of youngsters in the Orthodox community. The common quality in both situations seems to be an unwavering authority, coming up against the subjective truth of other people's experiences. It's too bad.

On the subject of authority: I wonder sometimes how useful a program might be like that of the Amish "rumspringa" - in which the young people are literally pushed out of their home nests into the larger world. Apparently they uniformly return - and stay. The experiential message is clear: what they have at home is better. But to thunder this from the pulpit simply doesn't seem to work. Rather - simply letting the world prove the value of their upbringing - seems to work every time. The rabbis reliance on angry authority would appear to reflect their own level of trust in their own flocks.

WHY do we Jews....especially the "Kumbayah Jews---the Tikkun Olam/Social Justice Jews" constantly play and overplay the Holocaust, BUT are TOTALLY blind to the evil of the Muslim brotherhood---and the clear and direct successors to the Nazis----the PLO/ PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and others. As evil as the Nazis were, their have been THOUSANDS more Jews who have died at teh hands of the followers of Islam and Mohammed.

Have we NOT learned that saying "NEVER AGAIN" is meaningless, when Jews ignore that "NEVER" is here "AGAIN?"

Why did 78% of people claiming to be Jewish vote for Obama---a man with a poorly concealed history of antagonism to Israel...a man who repeats this hostility evry passing day? How could a group of supposed rabbi---the Rabbis for Obama, choose to shun Torah, shun Israel, and blindly politicize our faith, in an effort to support a follower of Reverend Wright, and other enemies of Judaism?

Why are so many Jews willing to support Obama (a man with muslim sympathies) over their homeland---ISRAEL---their gift in eternity from G-d? How can we defend Jews abandoning our Temple Mount, most of Jerusalem, the Tomb of our Patriarchs/Matriarchs (in Hebron), and Joseph's Tomb in Nablus/Shechem to an enemy who has given us NOTHING?

Has "land for peace" given us anything but more widows and orphans? WHY do we allow a repeat of Nazism----right in front of our eyes, and why do we so blindly support a Muslim Pied Piper, when his goals should be so clear to all?

So, forget about "NEVER AGAIN." Never is happening right now.

Ari Vernon's experience proves the trip has important educational value. Perhaps the ruling of Rav Aviner applies to Israeli Jews only, who have no need to go back and see themselves as victims. Jews steeped in Diaspora need to get the full shock value of Diaspora at its worst possibility. It's good that the trip encourages looking at Israel as the panacea to our worst existential nightmares. If only it would take the next natural step and show how Torah is the... ongoing answer to our existential problems.

It would also be of value educationally to point out that violent Muslim Arabs are the current Nazis. And also that marrying non-Jews effectively kills off our nation, as well.

(Hey, by the way, Ari Vernon, I went to Sprout Lake with you, when I was then known as Alex Lichtenstein!)

Mr. Santomauro, it seems these debates must go on forever. So let us continue. Indeed, let's begin with the premise that all humans are flawed and that the driving force behind most human endeavors is self-interest. a - Neither what preceded the Ottoman Empire nor the British Mandate that followed ever constituted a "homeland of a people", if you mean "Palestinians" (only a small percentage of whose ancestors were born in the land of Israel). b - When will the "Palestinians" take responsibility for the fact that they refused to share the land of Israel with a Jewish state, the state of a homeless, defenseless people who had been driven from the land many centuries before and who had declared to the world continuously that they planned to return to the land that had been wrested from them by the Romans and those who followed the. Can Arabs accept no responsibility for "what happened in 1948", and for "what is happening today", viz., that they are ceding their leadership to people whose sole declared aim is the destruction of Israel? Will you grant that "Palestinians" are flawed, and that the driving force behind them and their leaders is self-interest? And why should it not be legitimate for Jews and Israelis also to act out of their perceived self-interest? If not they, then who will pursue their interests?

I am writing as a Religious Zionist and as one who spent a week in Poland with the Heritage programme several years ago. There are arguments to be respected on both sides of this debate. Undoubtedly, the impact of the Shoah is higher after visiting these terrible places. The Heritage programme is excellent as it highlights Jewish life, pre-war, as opposed to only Jewish death. However, far too much emphasis is placed on the Shoah in the Israeli educational system as a means to increasing Jewish identity. My children had Holocaust related projects in all kinds of subjects. This is a negative way of looking at the Jewish world, heritage and values.

Yes I see the point of both opinions, there are arguiments for and against. But to say that Ukraininans and Poles all of them are Jew-haters is cruel - there exist maybe a few thousand Liberals and leftist or siply decent Conservative or even religious Catholic Poles and Ukraininas who were just outnumbered by bigots or dumb people...And even a hateful minority can create havoc, like it is clear that most everyday regular Arabs have no deep hatred against Jews. It is possible that for some religious person who could make is peace with the extreme cruelty of life events (and its Creator) such a trip can dissolve like fog in his memory ...I was an atheist when I was twenty and went (al alone from my own money with non-Jewish friends) to Poland and I will never forget that...the piles of spectacles...No. I will never forget but i do not like to read about it (although I had to for exams in History at University.) I find it distasteful to force descendants of victims to read about these terrible things...and I come from a mixed family (like almost 50% Jews in my country)and it is not better for the descendant of a perpetrator. I will never understand racist generalizations as a tool in everyday hatred campaigns on any side. It seems that the side of discernment and inner serenity simply has no tools against all kinds of extremisms resurfacing. Sometimes I even see the point in what Kabbalah says: that there is no outward act that can be judged - only the inner process counts and it cannot be judged from outside. I do not pretend to be able to see what is the reason behind a stance opposing trips to learn about our past - but weird opinions have a tendency to make an instant celebrity from the author, so it is sometimes worth while to come up with a shocking new insight (and I do not suggest he did it for such egoist motives - it is a logical point he makes and we must think about most things from every possible angle. If some money was indeed stolen,- not impossible - all the more so.)

This whole topic of trips is a very complicated issue, no easy answers, I believe. I do agree that you learn not only by memorizing but also by experiencing. So if they say that this whole knowledge disappears so quickly, we should think about changing the way those trips are organized? And the way that those kids are taught at school and prepared for the trip?

Still, this religious argument does not appeal to me. I also think that if you're a religious leader you are to search for the truth. And here we see a politician speaking here who knows little about history. I was especially outraged by this last oversimplification:

Aviner wrote: “We also should not provide financial gains to the extremely wicked Polish, and all the more so the Ukrainians, who allowed the establishment of concentration camps in their territory."

Come on, we do know more than very well that there were Poles, Ukrainians and others who were wicked, who killed Jews or betrayed them. But not ALL of them, I don't know the numbers, but suppose most were simply silent witnesses and some were also rescuers. There was, there is and probably and sadly there'll always be anti-Semitism. But to say that Poles and Ukrainians allowed the establishment of the camps is simply not true. Check out the wikipedia, Poles were the first prisoners of Auschwitz and it was originally a camp meant mailny for the resistance movement members, though also a few Jews were sent there at the time (maybe also members of the resistance movement? I don't know). I don't think they'd have allowed establishing a camp for themselves that easily! They were occupied, they lost the war, so what could they do about Germans building a camp or another? And who could at that time imagine what happened next? Go and learn the history if its a mitzveh:

"Auschwitz I was the original camp, and it served as the administrative center for the whole complex. It was founded on May 20, 1940, on the basis of an old Polish brick army barracks (originally built by the Austro-Hungarian Empire). A group of 728 Polish political prisoners from Tarnów became the first residents of Auschwitz on June 14 that year.

The camp was initially used for interning Polish intellectuals and resistance movement members, then also for Soviet Prisoners of War. Common German criminals, "anti-social elements" and 48 German homosexuals were also imprisoned there. Jews were sent to the camp as well, beginning with the very first shipment (from Tarnów)".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

Aviner continues: “They knew that the Germans were annihilating Jews and they looked upon this with joy. They were of one heart with the Nazis; it was therefore not by happenstance that the concentration camps were established precisely there. The Polish fulfilled the verse [from the Book of Kings]: ‘Will you murder and also inherit.’ We do not want to give them money.”

People initially did not want to believe what was going on. Some knew and some did not. We can say that the Americans also knew about the death camps, it was a Pole, Jan Karski, who informed the Amercian authorities and others but they did nothing. So please stop your oversimplifications and try to understand a bit more out of the history.

If you're a religious leader, you are to tell the truth. The whole truth and not only what fits your narrow world view. I don't think that's what Hashem wants from you.

The visit to Poland is an educational tool to help our youngsters understand the Holocaust. Obviously, the topic can be presented in the classroom, but the intense week in Poland is an additional method of focusing on the uniqueness of the Holocaust. The point of view of Ari Vernon is very widely accepted. Many people draw the conclusion that the experience of the Holocaust should strengthen our resolve that the State of Israel must survive. Indeed, the State of Israel is the very heart of today's Jewish world, and none of us could imagine a world without our thriving Hebrew society. However, the rise of Israel is a result of Jewish aspirations and efforts from throughout history. The Holocaust, without a doubt, was the main factor in the timing of founding Israel - but the real driving force behind the rebirth of Israel was our resolve to preserve our cultural heritage. The revival of the Hebrew language in the Land of Israel, the greatest of all the wonders of modern Jewish history, occurred decades before the Holocaust.

Michael Santomauro has written for us the exact same comment three times already. The repitition of his claims doesn't make them more convincing. On the contrary - it sounds like simple propaganda. There was not a single refugee on the day that war broke out in 1947. In other words, hostilities were not the result of Palestinian grievances that people had lost their homes or livelihood. Hostilities broke out because of the Arab rejection of the political program that was presented as a compromise - the Partition Plan of 1947. It is the only case in history that people and states went to war in order to foil a UN peace plan. The result of the war was sad for the Palestinian Arabs. The intention was to go to war, rejecting partition (and preventing Jewish statehood), in order to be victorious. Blaming their enemy for having defeated them is one of the strangest aspects of the Palestinian narrative, adopted by Michael Santomauro. The Palestinians are saying: "We had a right to wage war on you, but you had no right to defeat us!"

The conflict continues today. After the achievement of peace, there will be an opportunity to philosophize about blame and responsibility. Strangely, there are those who claim that Israel (and only Israel) must admit her responsibility for the conflict right now. Well, obviously, Israel feels that her struggle is just, and that she has handled the sea of hostility all around her in a reasonable manner.

The Land of Israel is our homeland obviously, yet Michael Santomauro speaks of it as "stolen". It's quite amazing. There are so many truly stolen countries in this world. Australia and New Zealand are two examples, and I could add another few dozens (including, probably, the country in which Michael Santomauro lives). If stolen homelands were an issue, then we would hear comments about all of them. The issue is, however, to question the legitimacy of Jewish national life. Indeed, it is a conflict only about legitimacy, and it will be resolved only when Jewish legitimacy is finally accepted.

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner's assumptions about Polish complicity with the Nazis during the Holocaust are simply uneducated and vile.

True, there were some Poles who aided the Nazis and were, as Aviner says, "extremely wicked." But the vast majority of Poles, who were under a ruthless occupation by the Nazis themselves, were unable to do anything for the Jews in their midst (though there were exceptional ones who risked their lives to rescue Jews). That's why it's preposterous for him to claim that Poles "allowed the establishment of concentration camps in their territory."

The Nazis established the camps in Poland because that's were most of Europe's Jews lived and because it was a geographically central point to which Jews could be gathered. For more on this, see my blog post on the subject at: http://soitgoes.typepad.com/so_it_goes/2009/04/polish-rescuers-of-jews-and-the-habit-of-breathing-.html

Although my own family's lives and property were taken, I prefer to look at Polish and Ukrainian people as individuals, each with a unique view rather than continuing the nationalist type thinking that allowed the Holocaust to occur. When I encountered one of these groups on a field trip during my own visit to Auschwitz, I found many of them to be unreflective, and disrespectful. Hopefully they became thoughtful later as a result of being exposed to that information. These field trippers are so visually, obviously Israeli, and giving a poor representation of their State. Continue the trips, but tone down the flags, etc. and choose who will go based on scholarship with an essay written about why it would be important to their development to make this journey. When you urge someone to do something they get so much less out of it then if they have to work for the privilege.

These rabbis oppose anything they do not control and do not want input through any sources not under their influence. My trips to Auschwitz and Terezen have made indelible impressions on me may years later and did not fade. Experiential learning is very powerful. Shame on those who undermine such trips (despite my reluctance to support Poland).

Rabbi Aviner is an ignorant, stupid, and yes, alas, dangerous man; he speaks without knowledge, sows suspicion and enmity, when there should be healing, and embarrasses us all with his fatwas. Enough already. Another rabbi is reported today in Haaretz as saying that all unmarried Haredim past the age of 20 must leave Jerusalem, if not engaged in Torah study. He proposes 19 as the ideal age for men to marry. And so it goes; on and on....

Instead if Poland and Germany, go visit Iran. I say this for the following reasons:

1) You'll then be able to decide for yourself whether Iran is really as dangerous as some folk would have you believe; 2) You'll then be able to decide whether the comparisons of Ahmadinejad with Hitler really make sense; 3) You'll can visit the tombs of Esther and Daniel; 4) You'll be able visit one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world, going back to biblical times; 5) You'll find out whether Roger Cohen of NY Times was naive or prescient; 6) You'll discover whether there is intellectual life and modernity in Iran.

I am the Director of the USA Southern Region of the March of the Living. Having read this article and focusing on Rabbi Aviner's comments I can only say that this is a prepostorous position. The March of the Living's residual affect is well beyond a decade for so many of the young participants with whom I've had the privilege of Marching. I've been on the March since it's inception and have brought well over 1200 teens through the gates of "arbeit mach frei." There is no doubt that the March provides these youngsters with a life-long impact that has literally challenged their complacency as Jews - particularly as American Jews. Although we don't have a recent empiracle study that would provide us with significant data - just from our Southern Region alone we have had numerous youngsters who have made aliya, gone into the Jewish communal profession, re-commited themselves to synagogue life and have singificantly reduced their inter-faith dating, no less marriage. Rabbi Aviner is clearly speaking from a particularly biased agenda of wanting all the funding to go to his programs... well there's more than one way to skin a cat and the March of the Living has a greater impact -particulalry on American teens (I don't know about Israeli teens) than any other single Jewish oriented travel program to Israel.

My father, a survivor of Sobibor, was also against visits to the death camps, though he relented later in life when we returned to visit his hometown of Wlodawa.

I went often on UJA missions, Marches of the Living and other trips, taking people to see and experience it first hand.

Dad made me promise not to buy ANYTHING while I was there, neither food nor water and especially not souveniers.

He was more angry with the Poles and Ukrainians than he was against the Germans and the prospect of them making even a zloty off of Jewish people was more than he could stand.

I am a veteran educator, and a journalist who has written extensively on the Holocaust, including on the Demjanjuk trial and on Kurt Waldheim.

But I'm writing this only as a mother.

The school trip to Poland changed my son's life.

TKG, Israel